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Two 48 Hour Postal Strikes
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gfloyd



Joined: 07 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

firewirefred wrote:
gfloyd wrote:
firewirefred wrote:

Do some research. That is not what the dispute is about.


You should try the same sometimes.

from BBC news:

Royal Mail worker David Wall, a postman with the Walton office in Liverpool, said hundreds of postal workers had gone back to the picket lines to protest against the changes to flexible working hours.

These included the end of the freedom to leave early once staff have finished their round.

He explained that the wildcat strikes were triggered by new Royal Mail rules, which they had not consented to, that prevented workers from starting work before 0600 BST and leaving before 1415 BST.

Historically, most postal workers begun their shift between 0500 BST and 0530 BST and were free to go when they had finished their round.

Mr Wall argued this loss of flexibility, and not pay, was the reason why he was on strike and said that he believed that was the case for most of his Royal Mail colleagues.


You made a comment about the "postal workers being made to work the hours they're paid for" and my response was correct in the context. The dispute isn't about that - it's about the degree of flexibility in working arrangements that's under dispute, and the fact that the Royal Mail has apparently reneged on a previous commitment.

Here's a statement from CWU:

http://www.cwu.org/news.asp?step=3&NID=1836

I talked to my postman, who lives near me and who I see in the local shops with his kids, who told me that he gets up at 3.30am and doesn't usually finish his rounds until 11.30am or mid-day - and he uses his own car to hop between walks even though he's not paid to.

So who do we believe?


This is how it is being spun. Of course there are postmen who are working hard and who are requiring a full working day to deliver all the mail on their round. Nobody disputes that. But what is a cause of legitimate concern is where postmen have got "soft" rounds that they can easily complete in less than full working day. These rounds need to be changed, either to coverage a larger area or to pay the (wo)men based on the number of hours they actually work to deliver mail at a normal speed.

Seems perfectly reasonable to me and would be considered normal practice in most companies these days.
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mark occomore



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

firewirefred wrote:
mark occomore wrote:
At least one thing your postie finishes at midday and the rest of his day to spend with his family.


It might be mid-day for you, but it's hardly mid-day for somebody who's up at 3.30 every morning! I'd say that was the end of the day. It's all relative.



If you can't handle the heat then as they say 'get out the kitchen.
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firewirefred
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 12:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mark occomore wrote:
If you can't handle the heat then as they say 'get out the kitchen.


Who is the above aimed at, Mark? You're writing in riddles again (intentionally or unintentionally!) Rolling Eyes
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mark occomore



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 7:14 pm    Post subject: Court Order Reply with quote

The High Court has blocked official strike action planned by the postal workers' union for Monday and Tuesday.

The Royal Mail was granted an injunction to stop Communication Workers' Union members at sorting and delivery offices from striking.

Royal Mail argued that the union had not given accurate figures for the number of staff affected by the strike, a legal requirement.

The union insisted the strike was legitimate.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7038899.stm

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is what it has to come too?
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firewirefred
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 9:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Court Order Reply with quote

mark occomore wrote:
This is what it has to come too?


In fact, it has come to, too.

Plus - the High Court Judge correctly ruled that the union cannot engage in strike action when discussions have been taking place all day today pending an agreement. In other words, it takes two sides to engage in discussion and agreements are reached by two parties. So the High Court Judge has forced them to continue dialogue in many respects.

So, in other words, this is what it has come to too two.
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mark occomore



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 8:16 am    Post subject: Re: Court Order Reply with quote

firewirefred wrote:
mark occomore wrote:
This is what it has to come too?


In fact, it has come to, too.

Plus - the High Court Judge correctly ruled that the union cannot engage in strike action when discussions have been taking place all day today pending an agreement. In other words, it takes two sides to engage in discussion and agreements are reached by two parties. So the High Court Judge has forced them to continue dialogue in many respects.

So, in other words, this is what it has come to too two.


Also on the grounds it's partly government run company and under a law it's illegal to strike. It's illegal for the Police or Fire Service to strike in this country. Meaning they really didn't get a full backing of the work force? It was reported that the post office sorting office could have recruited temps during the strike which could have caused more trouble. Temps get slightly paid more and they are able to come a go as they please.
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Briant



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark, you are always good for a laugh! The one delivery 'job and finish' policy was something that Royal Mail and the CWU both agreed upon to sell the idea to the staff. Now the Royal Mail wish to renege on this agreement, hence the propaganda wars.
Using agency workers is the economics of the madhouse, and yet Royal Mail persists in the practice instead of employing full trained staff. No wonder mail is often 'dumped'. The next day the regular staff have to deal not only with that day's mail, but the previous day's too.
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gfloyd



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Briant wrote:
Mark, you are always good for a laugh! The one delivery 'job and finish' policy was something that Royal Mail and the CWU both agreed upon to sell the idea to the staff.


Try getting a deal like that in the real world outside of a state owned company and you would probably be laughed out of the room.
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firewirefred
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 11:14 am    Post subject: Re: Court Order Reply with quote

mark occomore wrote:
Also on the grounds it's partly government run company and under a law it's illegal to strike.


It is NOT illegal for Postal Service employees to engage in strike action. Nor is it illegal for Civil Servants or Local Authority employees, or Air Traffic Controllers etc etc to strike.....

...... and where on earth do you get the idea that it's illegal for Fire & Rescue Services staff to strike? Haven't Fire staffs been on strike recently? Weren't they on strike in the late 70s when the infamous Green Goddesses were wheeled out (and again a few years back)?

Members of the Police and Armed Forces aren't allowed to strike. But that's it. Others have A LEGAL RIGHT to withdraw their labour after a ballot has been taken and a majority has found in favour. If you don't like it, then work towards changing it through the democratic processes we have available to us.

For heaven's sake do your homework, Mark, before you come out with this rubbish.
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Briant



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here in the real world ernie, that is known as a 'perk'. You know, like bosses having two hour 'liquid lunches' to discuss their golf handicap. Rolling Eyes
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iwarburton



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So it looks as if the strike may be on the way out. I know the draft deal still has to be accepted by the membership but the prospects of this happening seem to be getting talked up.

But, thinking back to the injunction granted yesterday, I do ask if management by court action is the way to conduct industrial relations.

Ian.
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gfloyd



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Briant wrote:
Here in the real world ernie, that is known as a 'perk'. You know, like bosses having two hour 'liquid lunches' to discuss their golf handicap. Rolling Eyes

Briant,
Those things ended in the 1970's as well. I think you need to get with the times Wink
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Briant



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ernie, it is very obvious that you are a conservative thinker and think that workers should be kept in their place. Some of us aim for a fairer society.
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mark occomore



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 6:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Court Order Reply with quote

firewirefred wrote:
mark occomore wrote:
Also on the grounds it's partly government run company and under a law it's illegal to strike.


It is NOT illegal for Postal Service employees to engage in strike action. Nor is it illegal for Civil Servants or Local Authority employees, or Air Traffic Controllers etc etc to strike.....

...... and where on earth do you get the idea that it's illegal for Fire & Rescue Services staff to strike? Haven't Fire staffs been on strike recently? Weren't they on strike in the late 70s when the infamous Green Goddesses were wheeled out (and again a few years back)?

Members of the Police and Armed Forces aren't allowed to strike. But that's it. Others have A LEGAL RIGHT to withdraw their labour after a ballot has been taken and a majority has found in favour. If you don't like it, then work towards changing it through the democratic processes we have available to us.

For heaven's sake do your homework, Mark, before you come out with this rubbish.


You are correct it is the Police and Armed Forces. For god sake stop following me like a lost person. Laughing
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gfloyd



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Briant wrote:
ernie, it is very obvious that you are a conservative thinker and think that workers should be kept in their place. Some of us aim for a fairer society.


well the post office working practices went out with the ark. I understand that if you spent your life there its not easy to see that. If the post office doesnt change it wont survive. Would you rather it closed up shop? That's the choice that is coming around the corner if the company doesnt get its act together. Its not a very pleasant sitution and I have been in similar circumstances myself, but anything else is just the workers and managers deluding themselves.

As Rebert Peston said today http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/robertpeston/
that was the life or death issue. With the onset of competition in the postal market, Royal Mail was haemorrhaging custom to lower-cost competitors.

The reality is that the new world is going to be very different from the old one whether the workers like it or not.
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Briant



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ernie, I hope you read the comments attached to the article you highlighted for me. The fact is that the Royal Mail is being readied for privatisation with 'shares' for the workers which they do not want and as seen with all the other Thatcherite ideas they end up in the hands of the big institutions anyway. The staff are being asked to make up for the fifteen year hiatus that Royal Mail took from the pension fund (staff still paid in) by working another five years to obtain the same pension as now. By the way, I get a state pension and my PO pension. They are added together and I pay tax accordingly. When I joined back in the sixties, I worked up to eighteen hours a day and also Sundays (six hours) as there was no mechanisation and all the work was done by hand. The flat week wage was so poor that the FIS (Family Income Supplement) was eventually introduced. So the Brave New World you talk about is probably not as tough as the one I spent my working life in.
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firewirefred
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 3:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Court Order Reply with quote

mark occomore wrote:
You are correct it is the Police and Armed Forces. For god sake stop following me like a lost person. Laughing


Stop posting errant nonsense then!
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mark occomore



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 6:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Court Order Reply with quote

firewirefred wrote:
mark occomore wrote:
You are correct it is the Police and Armed Forces. For god sake stop following me like a lost person. Laughing


Stop posting errant nonsense then!



Hang on a second I didn't post nonsense, I just got half of it wrong. Stop being rude.
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gfloyd



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Briant wrote:
ernie, I hope you read the comments attached to the article you highlighted for me. The fact is that the Royal Mail is being readied for privatisation with 'shares' for the workers which they do not want and as seen with all the other Thatcherite ideas they end up in the hands of the big institutions anyway. The staff are being asked to make up for the fifteen year hiatus that Royal Mail took from the pension fund (staff still paid in) by working another five years to obtain the same pension as now. By the way, I get a state pension and my PO pension. They are added together and I pay tax accordingly. When I joined back in the sixties, I worked up to eighteen hours a day and also Sundays (six hours) as there was no mechanisation and all the work was done by hand. The flat week wage was so poor that the FIS (Family Income Supplement) was eventually introduced. So the Brave New World you talk about is probably not as tough as the one I spent my working life in.


The introduction of competition for the post office is a European directive. The UK government has no say over it, so it will happen regardless of whether the unions and or the UK government want it. So that is the background. When Crozier took over the Royal Mail they were making a £1bn loss per annum. That is the bill that the taxpayer would have to foot every year unless the changes are made to the working practices.

So the choices are:

- accept competition or leave the EU

- curb the losses or let the taxpayer pick up a massive tab each year to fund the postal service. Incidentally this is not an option either under EU law.

So your gripe really rests with the EU. And ironically it is only the Tories that want to give you a vote on that issue. Wink
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Briant



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello ernie. There is no real competition for the Royal Mail on the letters side. All that has happened is that the business mail is collected and processed by others and then is delivered by the Royal Mail. The Government took £300M each year when we were making a profit before a penny was paid in wages to the staff. So the workers were subsidising their own industry with low pay and paying for the mechanisation that followed. Now that there are some increases in the cost of posting letters, profitability is likely to return, though the service has been reduced to one delivery a day.

Remember the Elvis song 'Why can't every day be like Christmas?' Well go to a major sorting office and see the postie going out laden like a donkey and with more bags waiting en route for him to deliver and then say these people don't work hard.
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