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Protesting Over Government Policies
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Eric Shone



Joined: 06 Sep 2010
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ColinB wrote:
mark occomore wrote:
There was no intent to kill. He could have! The judge is making an example of him.


In which case, I repeat my previous statement:

"So, if some unruly oik goes up to the roof of a building near me and drops a fire extinguisher onto the road below, can he expect to receive the same punishment?"

Can he?


Of course not, it wasn't at a big protest was it?
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ruddlescat



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just putting my legal hat on for a moment, had he killed someone below in all probability he would have been facing a charge of manslaughter because as Mark says there would have been no intention to kill
For that he would get a sentence of between two and five years

However the definition of murder is wide enough to include an element of being reckless as to whether an action causes death or not so a murder charge is not impossible in such a case particularly if the authorities have it in for this young idiot

Personally I think he may appeal against sentence anyway so it could all change in a few weeks time
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John W



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 12:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mark occomore wrote:
There was no intent to kill.


Eh? How do you know? Did the prosecution ask him what his intentions were?

I suppose if the question was asked in court he probably would have lied and said 'Just wanted to frighten the coppers'. The jury/judge would have none of that.

He couldn't drop it 'to miss' as the time it took the object to fall, anyone could have stepped underneath it. At that moment in time he wanted the object to strike a copper on the head.
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undiscovered



Joined: 15 Sep 2010
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice to see judges being leaned on by powers at be or some public opinion. That is not what judges are supposed to do. I've heard of people commiting death by dangerous driving getting less.
Yes it was wrong, Yes he got carried away.
Is the sentence harsh? yes I feel it was.
ALL sentences are there to make examples of, as it is to deter others from committing similar crimes. As written above this is just to appease the Daily Mail readers/ Journos
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Rachel
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 9:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The problem is not that his punishment is harsh (it isn’t), the problem is that his punishment “seems” harsh when compared to other crime and punishment. We’re just used to being far too soft on criminals all round, so when someone actually gets what he or she deserves, it seems harsh but it isn’t.
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RockitRon



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Exactly, and all the indications are that sentences are going to get even more lenient as there are no plans to provide significantly increased prison capacity.

From the CCTV pictures I saw he certainly didn't look as though he was aiming to miss.
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ruddlescat



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Certainly if you compare the British sentencing system with that in the USA our prison sentences are much more lenient generally

In America it is not unusual to get a jail term of three years for say shoplifting

What rather annoys me about the British system is that often people get longer sentences for financial crimes than for those resulting in death of an innocent person
Take the guy who faked his own death in order to defraud insurance companies
Whilst I'm not in any way defending what he did he got a sentence of more than five years for a first offence which is much longer than most cases of causing death by dangerous driving and even manslaughter

It tends to suggest to me that out legal system values loss of money greater than the loss of human life and it urgently needs to be reviewed
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undiscovered



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ruddlescat wrote:
Certainly if you compare the British sentencing system with that in the USA our prison sentences are much more lenient generally

In America it is not unusual to get a jail term of three years for say shoplifting


It's not unusual to get life for shoplifting in the US their 3 strikes system is hardly one we want to aspire to nearly 1% of it's population is incarcerated. nearly 1 in 18 men. Sorry Ruds wrong place to compare to. We are nto the States and neither should we attempt to be
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RockitRon



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There should at least be some sort of deterrent in this country.
At present it seems that the average serial thief, burglar, mugger, drunk, banned or uninsured driver, or thug who throws a fire extinguisher off the top of a building does so with almost impunity and with the calculated risk that, even if he does get caught the most he is normally likely to get is six months in prison. The victims have to live with the trauma for the rest of their lives, and are not given so much as a thought.
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ruddlescat



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wasn't saying that we should necessarily copy the American system Dis,
I was simply pointing out the difference in the two countries

Having said that I agree with Ron that we do need stronger sentences in Britain but not necessarily always prison

Other types of punishment need to be made tougher and more effective and there needs to be a lot more of hitting offenders in the pocket where appropriate

Prison costs the taxpayer a small fortune and should only be used for offenders who are dangerous to society or as a very last resort for others
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undiscovered



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hate to say this but normal peaceful protests just don't get the coverage, you can sympathise with the protestors who feel they are not taken seriouslly
Big protest in Cambridge yesterday hardly made the news Varsity link
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ColinB
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

undiscovered wrote:
I hate to say this but normal peaceful protests just don't get the coverage, you can sympathise with the protestors who feel they are not taken seriouslly
Big protest in Cambridge yesterday hardly made the news Varsity link


Yep, I agree. It does clearly indicate the insidious agenda of the mass media.
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ruddlescat



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The media won't cover anything unless it happens to fit in with their particular agenda and when they do take an interest they often twist the truth to fit whatever line they wish to peddle on a particular issue

Everyone on here knows my opinion of journalists (Colin not included) so I shan't bother repeating it
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ColinB
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ruddlescat wrote:
Everyone on here knows my opinion of journalists (Colin not included) so I shan't bother repeating it


Of course, what you really mean is "some journalists". But, then again, we've been there before... Cool
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ruddlescat



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No I don't mean that Colin

The word 'Journalist' has its origins in the French word 'Jour' meaning 'day'a journal being a daily record of events and happenings and a journalist being a person who writes about such things on a daily basis

It follows that the only real journalists in a literal sense are people who write for daily or Sunday newspapers and those are the people I am talking about

Someone who writes for fashion magazines or motoring magazines is not strictly a journalist neither is anyone who writes or compiles books
These people are authors or specialist writers but not journalists and hence do not fall within my hated category
Hope all is now clear and yes I agree the newspaper proprietors also have a lot to answer for
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Last edited by ruddlescat on Tue Jan 18, 2011 12:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
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ColinB
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 11:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ruddlescat wrote:
The word 'Journalist' has its origins in the French word 'Jour' meaning 'day'a journal being a daily record of events and happenings and a journalist being a person who writes about such things on a daily basi


There are lots of writers-of-daily-journals who are also very good at what they do - and when they're exposing corruption and other forms of malpractice I'm very grateful for their diligence. Democracy needs it to survive.

So, perhaps "some journalists" is still the preferred description?
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ruddlescat



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 12:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do take your point Colin and I agree there are occasionally situations where the system works well for example when the Telegraph was instrumental in exposing the MPs expenses scandal

Unfortunately that seems to be the exception rather than the rule

The more normal situation is to have the newspapers telling blatent lies about, for example, the Hillsborough disaster or the alleged conduct of well known celebrities who are subsequently proved to have done nothing wrong but have their careers damaged irretrievably because of the lies peddled purely in the interests of selling newspapers

The British press urgently requires new regulation with something far more powerful than the Press Complaints Commission which is a toothless tiger run by former insiders
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undiscovered



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ruddlescat wrote:
I do take your point Colin and I agree there are occasionally situations where the system works well for example when the Telegraph was instrumental in exposing the MPs expenses scandal

Unfortunately that seems to be the exception rather than the rule

The more normal situation is to have the newspapers telling blatent lies about, for example, the Hillsborough disaster or the alleged conduct of well known celebrities who are subsequently proved to have done nothing wrong but have their careers damaged irretrievably because of the lies peddled purely in the interests of selling newspapers

The British press urgently requires new regulation with something far more powerful than the Press Complaints Commission which is a toothless tiger run by former insiders


Rudds, lets just wait for this NOTW phone tapping story to finish off and I think there maybe some repercussions, saying that in Murdoch land it's not making the papers? I thought if it was news it's news
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mark occomore



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The TUC March in London was a good turn out. I do condem the Anti protests smashing up Banks, Cash Machines and throwing paint over landmarks in trafalgar square is a disgrace. Sooner a later someone will get killed.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mark occomore wrote:
The TUC March in London was a good turn out. I do condem the Anti protests smashing up Banks, Cash Machines and throwing paint over landmarks in trafalgar square is a disgrace. Sooner a later someone will get killed.


There's an increasing suspicion that right-wing interests are egging these groups on in order to give the Daily Mail even more "isn't it shocking" headlines and to denigrate the efforts of a growing mass of people who have a just cause. That wouldn't surprise me in the least.
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ruddlescat



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure I buy that explanation Colin but I do think that the anarchist idiots are doing serious harm to what is a genuinely justified protest campaign and of course this extreme minority are giving ammunition to the rag bag of tabloids who are happy to jump on the protest bashing bandwagon at the least opportunity

I think the Daily Mail sometimes come within this category but I think there are often others far worse
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ColinB
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know two people who were offered money from right-of-centre tabloid newspapers to create "photo opportunities" during the miners' strike of 1984 and I have no doubt whatever that it's happening here.
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Eric Shone



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What gets me is that the BBC reporting on this seems to be less biased than their reporting on the student protests.

News bulletins on the student protests were all about the violence and very little (if any) mention of the peaceful majority.
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mark occomore



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Then you get the tabloid trash provoking the situation with reports saying " expected violence and trouble associated with the Royal Wedding" Hopefully the police can get on top of this before the day, because it will be a bloody nightmare if it does happen...
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ruddlescat



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah Colin now I can believe what you say

There is a big difference between saying that right wing groups are egging on the anarchists and saying that tabloid newspapers are doing so

I can quite believe that this is exactly the type of thing which such newspaper journalists would do which brings me back to my very low opinion of most of that 'profession'

I could quote you a whole host of dishonest and disreputable tricks employed by gutter tabloid journalists in order to invent stories and now you have clarified your earlier comments I can entirely accept them as being quite possible or even probable Sad
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ColinB
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ruddlescat wrote:
There is a big difference between saying that right wing groups are egging on the anarchists and saying that tabloid newspapers are doing so


I didn't say right-wing groups, I said "right-wing interests". There's an element of our press that's controlled by right-wing interests and they have direct influence over Tory policy-making. Why do you think this campaign of cuts has the backing of the right-wingers? Because the cuts are ideologically based, that's why.

That's why I believe the whole thing is more insidious than it first appears - and I'm adamant that the so-called "extremist violence" has been stoked up by right-wing interests as a means of discrediting the campaign against the cuts and demonising ordinary honest working people who are being made the scapegoats for the failures of those who represent capital interests (aka "right-wing interests").

ruddlescat wrote:
I can quite believe that this is exactly the type of thing which such newspaper journalists would do which brings me back to my very low opinion of most of that 'profession'

I could quote you a whole host of dishonest and disreputable tricks employed by gutter tabloid journalists in order to invent stories and now you have clarified your earlier comments I can entirely accept them as being quite possible or even probable Sad


No, you've got it wrong. It isn't the foot-soldiers who are to blame - it's the generals. They're the dangerous ones and the real threat to democracy. The Bristish right-wing press proprietorship is the real enemy of the people - and that includes the Murdoch Mafia.
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ruddlescat



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm sorry Colin but I have to disagree

The presents cuts are being pushed by the Cameron- Osbourne old Etonian elements in the Conservative Party in conjunction with certain Liberal Democrats not the right wing of the Tory party and if you care to remember many right wing Tory MP's including David Davies voted against the increase in tuition fees unlike most of the Lib Dems

Whilst I do not disagree with you about the Murdoch Agenda I can assure you that ordinary tabloid journalists do resort to unacceptable dirty tricks in order to secure invented stories and we all remember the old fake Sheik trick engaged in by the News of the Screws

I could quote instances of many similar dishonest things engaged in by tabloid journalists
For example have you ever heard of the old tabloid trick known as 'loading the table' ?

I think most people would be shocked if they knew what really went on in order to obtain the so called stories they read about in the tabloids every day and you have really got to see it to believe it
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 9:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ruddlescat wrote:
I'm sorry Colin but I have to disagree


In which case we're going to have to agree to disagree.
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undiscovered



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ColinB wrote:

I didn't say right-wing groups, I said "right-wing interests". There's an element of our press that's controlled by right-wing interests

Most of them then,
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