R2OK! Forum Index R2OK!
Contact R2OK! admin

Click here for R2OK! Website


 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Double Summertime
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    R2OK! Forum Index -> Coffee Bar
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Blondehedgehog



Joined: 16 Sep 2010
Posts: 286
Location: UK

PostPosted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 8:53 pm    Post subject: Double Summertime Reply with quote

I read and see on TV that the powers that be want us to have double summer time. I would just like to stay on GMT and have no changes..

What is the feeling out there?
_________________
I like hedgehog crisps
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ColinB
Guest





PostPosted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, I agree with you. I hate the messing about with the clocks. I'd prefer it to be left as it is all year round.

I always feel for the graveyard-shift radio presenters (like poor old Alex Lester!) who get to 1.00am only to have to fill in for another virtual hour until......... 1.00am again!

I remember driving home from a job in London early one morning and I got home before I even left!
Back to top
Helen May



Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 18214
Location: Cheshire

PostPosted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Having lived through the last experiment of not putting the clocks back, I'd prefer to stay the way we are now. I remember being in school/college and it was dark until almost 10 o'clock, not nice. Most who are advocating the change haven't lived through it so don't know what it's like.

H
_________________
88 - 91 FM this is Radio 2 from the BBC!

I said it live on air in the studio with Jeremy Vine on 10/3/2005
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
MadeinSurrey



Joined: 11 Dec 2006
Posts: 3130
Location: The Beautiful South

PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let's at least keep BST all year round, would much prefer it to stay lighter in the winter months for as long as possible.
_________________
MiS
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ruddlescat



Joined: 16 Sep 2010
Posts: 18010
Location: Near Chester

PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm all in favour of the change

It brings us into line with the rest of Europe and we have lighter evenings when most people have free time to enjoy it plus less accidents less power demand less greenhouse gas output and many other similar benefits

As far as I'm concerned it can't happen soon enough Smile
_________________
Are you ready for a Ruddles?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
undiscovered



Joined: 15 Sep 2010
Posts: 650
Location: Peterborough

PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ruddlescat wrote:
I'm all in favour of the change

It brings us into line with the rest of Europe and we have lighter evenings when most people have free time to enjoy it plus less accidents less power demand less greenhouse gas output and many other similar benefits

As far as I'm concerned it can't happen soon enough Smile


+1

I was beginning to think I didn't have an opinion on this as to be honest it doesn't make that much difference really, but on reflection on the grounds that all year round we would get an extra hour of light in the evening then it should save on fuel bills personally and nationally better re: greenhouse gasses.
_________________
You will hear gospel and rhythm and blues and jazz, all those are just labels, we know that music is music.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Rachel
Guest





PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ColinB wrote:


I always feel for the graveyard-shift radio presenters (like poor old Alex Lester!) who get to 1.00am only to have to fill in for another virtual hour until......... 1.00am again!



It always happens on Saturday night/ Sunday morning I think, so Alex will be all curled up and sleepy bye-byes with his bunny. The weekend guy, is it Richard A? ... well, I think it is.... well he needs the exposure so who cares?

I like British Summer Time- I never change my clocks from it- except also I have my clocks all ten minutes fast - so in winter they're an hour and ten minutes fast- but I know where I am. I'm never late. Ever. As I say to most people, if I don't turn up on time and I've not contacted you with an update, it's because I'm dead, so don't expect me to turn up late.
Back to top
Helen May



Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 18214
Location: Cheshire

PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ruddlescat wrote:
I'm all in favour of the change

It brings us into line with the rest of Europe and we have lighter evenings when most people have free time to enjoy it plus less accidents less power demand less greenhouse gas output and many other similar benefits

As far as I'm concerned it can't happen soon enough Smile


Why do we need to be the same as most of Europe though? There are parts of Europe that are another hour ahead. The US manage to conduct business with 5 time zones as well.

The power output is as broad as it is long as you will need more lights on in the mornings as it will be dark until almost 10 o'clock.

H
_________________
88 - 91 FM this is Radio 2 from the BBC!

I said it live on air in the studio with Jeremy Vine on 10/3/2005
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ruddlescat



Joined: 16 Sep 2010
Posts: 18010
Location: Near Chester

PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not suggesting that coming into line with the rest of Europe is the main reason we should do it as it's really just an added bonus

As far as use of electricity is concerned for example if you look at the present situation in mid summer it is dark in most places across the country from roughly 10.30pm to 4.30am but most people are asleep from 12pm to 6am

Putting two hours on the clock instead of one will bring the hours of darkness into line with this thus aiding sleep and saving energy

As far as winter is concerned it really doesn't matter to most people about darkness in a morning because they are busy at that time of day whereas if we have extra light in the evening people can enjoy it and use it much more beneficially

I know there are always some people whose lifestyle might not conform with the norm but at the end of the day in a democratic society the majority view should generally prevail and actually I think perhaps this issue could be the subject of a referendum

We now have a Scottish Parliament in respect of which there are currently proposals to grant more powers so there is no reason why that body could not vote to retain the present system if it was felt that Scotland would be adversely affected by the change elsewhere
_________________
Are you ready for a Ruddles?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Helen May



Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 18214
Location: Cheshire

PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought it was the evening darkness in winter that they want to counteract though? I can't see the point of having daylight until midnight in summer. it's far easier to sleep in darkness than daylight.

H
_________________
88 - 91 FM this is Radio 2 from the BBC!

I said it live on air in the studio with Jeremy Vine on 10/3/2005
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ruddlescat



Joined: 16 Sep 2010
Posts: 18010
Location: Near Chester

PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But that's the point Helen

Most people in mid summer at present get woken up too early because it gets light at 4.30am but if if was an hour darker many people would get an hour's extra sleep and wouldn't feel so tired so for example they should be safer drivers

And in winter you have to remember that a very large percentage of the population work in offices where they put all the lights on as soon as the office opens at 9am so if it's dark until say 10am in mid winter it will not lead to any more energy use because the lights are on anyway at the moment

As I saidI think the fairest thing might be to put the proposed change to the people in a referendum
_________________
Are you ready for a Ruddles?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Helen May



Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 18214
Location: Cheshire

PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's getting to sleep in daylight which would be my problem! Where I come from it's light until almost 11 in midsummer as it is. In the north of Scotland it is much later.

If it goes to a referendum it will more than likely go through because there are more people in the south who would not be affected so much by the change.

H
_________________
88 - 91 FM this is Radio 2 from the BBC!

I said it live on air in the studio with Jeremy Vine on 10/3/2005
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
preraphaeliteangel



Joined: 16 Nov 2010
Posts: 249
Location: Yorkshire

PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hope they leave things as they are. I can't bear dark mornings and I'd hate to have more of them.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
RockitRon



Joined: 07 Dec 2006
Posts: 7565

PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The proposal this time is that we align ourselves with Western Europe (what was formerly the "free, non-communist" part), still moving the clocks in March and October, so that, in southern England it will be light until 11pm in June and 5pm in December. I think the benefit to tourism is marginal - weather and temperature is more relevant and there's SFA that even the coalition can do about that.

The difference in "daylight hours" between southern England and northern Scotland at the solstices is about an hour and a half, so one can understand the Scots ambivalence at midnight sunshine (almost) and their chagrin at the prospect of darkness until 10am in midwinter.

I was here in Nottingham and still at school during the 1968 experiment of permanent GMT+1, and don't recall it being any great inconvenience, or advantage. However, I think that it did founder because of the adverse public opinion in the North and Scotland.
_________________
Ron
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Helen May



Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 18214
Location: Cheshire

PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 10:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You don't have to go as far north as Scotland Ron to have daylight pretty much up to 11 on clear nights.

I remember being on St Mary's lsland, just off Whitley Bay, probably almost on the longest day with some Belgian people who were amazed how light it stayed!

H
_________________
88 - 91 FM this is Radio 2 from the BBC!

I said it live on air in the studio with Jeremy Vine on 10/3/2005
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
BDG



Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 202

PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Surely the actual time it is has nothing to do with it?!! Only in the respect of getting up for work or going to school.

It gets light at x and dark at y regardless of the "time" we set our clocks to?! You are going to get woken up early in the morning when it gets light whatever time the clock says surely? The main reason for changing the clocks is because if not in the winter kids would be going and coming back from school in the dark is my understanding of it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Cherskiy



Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 3699
Location: near Amble, Northumberland

PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ruddlescat wrote:
Putting two hours on the clock instead of one will bring the hours of darkness into line with this thus aiding sleep and saving energy

We now have a Scottish Parliament in respect of which there are currently proposals to grant more powers so there is no reason why that body could not vote to retain the present system if it was felt that Scotland would be adversely affected by the change elsewhere


And what about us up here in Northumberland?

It won't aid my sleep, it'll actually make things worse. I start work at 6am after a 30min drive. During the week I'm often in bed by 9.30 so lighter nights mean more noise outside and less sleep for me (it's the hours before 12 which are better, apparently). If NE England can be lumped in with the Scots and give up this notion of fitting in with Europe, fair enough. The south can then do what it likes. In winter it will be dark until 10 or 11 in the morning - plenty of accidents on the roads as people have stayed up far too late the previous night enjoying the light nights, kids going to school in the dark for much longer during the year and all the dangers therein.
_________________
Cherskiy

You call *that* low?

Say hello to me at: http://www.myspace.com/cherskiy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Helen May



Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 18214
Location: Cheshire

PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cherskiy wrote:
ruddlescat wrote:
Putting two hours on the clock instead of one will bring the hours of darkness into line with this thus aiding sleep and saving energy

We now have a Scottish Parliament in respect of which there are currently proposals to grant more powers so there is no reason why that body could not vote to retain the present system if it was felt that Scotland would be adversely affected by the change elsewhere


And what about us up here in Northumberland?

It won't aid my sleep, it'll actually make things worse. I start work at 6am after a 30min drive. During the week I'm often in bed by 9.30 so lighter nights mean more noise outside and less sleep for me (it's the hours before 12 which are better, apparently). If NE England can be lumped in with the Scots and give up this notion of fitting in with Europe, fair enough. The south can then do what it likes. In winter it will be dark until 10 or 11 in the morning - plenty of accidents on the roads as people have stayed up far too late the previous night enjoying the light nights, kids going to school in the dark for much longer during the year and all the dangers therein.



Well said Cherskiy!

H
_________________
88 - 91 FM this is Radio 2 from the BBC!

I said it live on air in the studio with Jeremy Vine on 10/3/2005
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ruddlescat



Joined: 16 Sep 2010
Posts: 18010
Location: Near Chester

PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cherskiy whilst I understand what you're saying I don't think you are necessarily representative of the majority of the population

Most people don't leave home at 5.30am but probably more like 8 to 8.30 am and I think that's why it might be a problem for you but not for the majority

I don't really consider myself to be living in the South being that it's almost two hundred miles north west of London

The fact is whatever decision is made it will not please everyone but as I said before in a democracy the majority view should prevail and the best way to test it is in a national referendum
_________________
Are you ready for a Ruddles?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Helen May



Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 18214
Location: Cheshire

PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Coming from Newcastle and now living in Cheshire all I can say is that there is a vast difference in daylight lengths and that is only of a distance of approx 175 miles.

I can also confirm the dark mornings that Cherskiy describes are correct, I was up there when they last tried the experiment.

H
_________________
88 - 91 FM this is Radio 2 from the BBC!

I said it live on air in the studio with Jeremy Vine on 10/3/2005
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Cherskiy



Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 3699
Location: near Amble, Northumberland

PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ruddlescat wrote:
Cherskiy whilst I understand what you're saying I don't think you are necessarily representative of the majority of the population


So are you saying that because the majority of Londoners and the South East want to enjoy a few more pints sitting outside their pubs in spring and autumn, those of us north of Leeds should be condemned to whole mornings of darkness? It doesn't get light until around 9am in winter around here, either. You're suggesting that should be 10am, well after rush hour.

I'm not wanting to change things at all - it's not broke, so don't "fix" it.
_________________
Cherskiy

You call *that* low?

Say hello to me at: http://www.myspace.com/cherskiy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
iwarburton



Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 2133
Location: Northumberland

PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are arguments both ways but, having been around when this was tried in 1968/71, I'd rather leave things as they are, except that I'd advance putting the clocks forward to the first weekend of March.

Ian.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ruddlescat



Joined: 16 Sep 2010
Posts: 18010
Location: Near Chester

PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't live in London or the South East( in fact almost 200 miles away) but I really fail to see why people anywhere in the country should have a problem with darkness for longer in a morning

Although not true of everyone most people work a 9 to 5 day and so if they are leaving for work at say 8am it really doesn't matter if it is dark outside because there is nothing useful they can do at that time in the morning other than get on with their work

The extra light is however very useful to them in the evening and reduces energy consumption and makes there less chance of accidents happening and generally gives everyone more available free time which is much needed in the stressful world in which we now live

As I said the issue should be put to a referendum and we should all accept the outcome whatever it may be
_________________
Are you ready for a Ruddles?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
graham b



Joined: 23 Sep 2010
Posts: 211
Location: Wakefield

PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We are just coming to the time when I can set off for work in the light and get home in the light. It's something I look forward to every year. I feel a lot better when I arrive travel in daylight rather than shuffling around in the dark like a troglodyte. Why should I want extra daylight in the summer when I want to get to sleep to go to work the next day. Leave it as it is.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Cherskiy



Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 3699
Location: near Amble, Northumberland

PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ruddlescat wrote:
I don't live in London or the South East( in fact almost 200 miles away) but I really fail to see why people anywhere in the country should have a problem with darkness for longer in a morning


Hmmm. Best time of the day is the early morning for me - if I'm not at work, I'm often out for a walk or a ride on my bike before 8am, neither of which I'd fancy doing in the dark. There are plenty of us "early birds" out there: this decision shouldn't be put to an X-Factor style vote. Unfortunately, lots of our deliveries (putting food in the shops, that sort of thing) is done really early in the morning - those who do it are travelling during the dark half of the year as it is. Do you want to add to the dangers they face by making them do their jobs in perpetual darkness?

If people are so fond of wanting extra daylight after work, they should lobby their bosses to shift the working day an hour earlier, or ask for flexi time so they can do this themselves. They can then finish earlier and have more time to do whatever they want to do before it gets dark at the usual time. Schools could do the same, and they'd have plenty of time for extra-curricular activities in the afternoons. That way, it just incoveniences those who want a change, the only change being they'd have to get up an hour earlier. Aw, what a shame.... Wink
_________________
Cherskiy

You call *that* low?

Say hello to me at: http://www.myspace.com/cherskiy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Cherskiy



Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 3699
Location: near Amble, Northumberland

PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ruddlescat wrote:
....makes there less chance of accidents happening and generally gives everyone more available free time which is much needed in the stressful world in which we now live


Less chance of accidents? You're kidding, right? Most of the year people will be travelling to work in the dark, when they're half asleep yet still able to twitter and text on their mobile phones, without taking care on the roads. Children going to school in the dark for the same amount of time each year with the same inherent problems. If you vote yes, and the first child is killed during the dark because the driver was tired as he'd stayed up later the night before, won't you feel just a little guilty? Probably not, since you're enjoying the extra sunshine. Farmers operating complicated and dangerous machinery in the dark for most of the morning (oh, wait - just tell the cows we've voted to put the clocks ahead an hour so they'll have to hold their milk in a bit longer) - need I go on?

The last time they did this, there was an increase in road accidents during the morning, and a decrease at night (but the latter coincided with the introduction of drink-driving laws so fewer drunks were on the road). Care to guess what the outcome will be this time around? Are you prepared to have those extra accidents on your conscience just so you can have an extra glass of wine outside on the patio whilst watching the sunset over Cheshire? Sad
_________________
Cherskiy

You call *that* low?

Say hello to me at: http://www.myspace.com/cherskiy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
ruddlescat



Joined: 16 Sep 2010
Posts: 18010
Location: Near Chester

PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cherskiy, I've no wish to fall out with you because I do tend to agree with you on most issues but I have to take issue at your description as the prospect of a referendum as being an 'X Factor style vote'

On Thursday of this week the people of Wales will be voting in a referendum on the issue of whether the Welsh Assembly should be given full legislative powers without the need to get permission from Westminster

I think most of those voters would be grossly insulted to be compared to the idiots who vote on the X Factor

In my experience people who dislike referenda tend to be those who have little respect for democracy and want to push their own agenda however much their fellow citizens may disagree

One only has to look at all the broken promises made by politicians of all parties over their dishonoured promises to give the voters a referendum on the issue of further European integration

People are currently complaining of a lack of democracy in Libya and certain other places but when it comes to listening to the majority opinion within Britain certain people would seem to conveniently move the goalposts though thankfully not the present Government it would seem
_________________
Are you ready for a Ruddles?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ColinB
Guest





PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ruddlescat wrote:
In my experience people who dislike referenda tend to be those who have little respect for democracy and want to push their own agenda however much their fellow citizens may disagree


In principle, I'm certainly a supporter of referenda as being a measure of the majority of public opinion, but what we mustn't forget is that people can only cast a meaningful vote one way or the other is if they're properly informed about all of the issues for and against. Unfortunately, it's the same people who actually part with actual money to vote for some silly X-factor nonentity who then can't be bothered to exercise their hard-won right to vote in political elections. Can these people be trusted to make sensible decisions in a referendum?

I'm not using that as an favour of dictatorship (of course) but I can see why a referendum on the EU, for instance, never got to a national referendum largely on this point. As a student, I refused to vote in Edward Heath's "EEC Entry Referendum" in the early 1970s because I felt we were not properly informed about all the relevant issues.

Put crudely, too many people actually believe what they read in the redtop tabloids to know what the hell they're voting for. I can see Blair's point..........
Back to top
ruddlescat



Joined: 16 Sep 2010
Posts: 18010
Location: Near Chester

PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 10:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes I can see what you're saying Colin but on a non political issue such as the proposal to put two hours on the clock I believe that this is exactly the type of issue on which a referendum is appropriate

That is, of course, because there is no real agenda which can be manipulated by politicians for their own advantage
_________________
Are you ready for a Ruddles?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ColinB
Guest





PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 10:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ruddlescat wrote:
Yes I can see what you're saying Colin but on a non political issue such as the proposal to put two hours on the clock I believe that this is exactly the type of issue on which a referendum is appropriate


Yes, I accept that.
Back to top
MadeinSurrey



Joined: 11 Dec 2006
Posts: 3130
Location: The Beautiful South

PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 8:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Colin, the Referendum on the "Common Market "(as the EC was called then) was held in 1975 under Harold Wilson's Premiership.
_________________
MiS
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ColinB
Guest





PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 8:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MadeinSurrey wrote:
Colin, the Referendum on the "Common Market "(as the EC was called then) was held in 1975 under Harold Wilson's Premiership.


Yes, you're right of course. We had the whole issue of the coalition government and Wilson returning to power after Heath's brief tenure at No. 10. Still, it was Heath who was the main architect of our application to join the Common Market.

Either way, I didn't feel that I was qualified to make a judgment either way at the ballot box so I effectively abstained.
Back to top
Blondehedgehog



Joined: 16 Sep 2010
Posts: 286
Location: UK

PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ColinB wrote:
MadeinSurrey wrote:
Colin, the Referendum on the "Common Market "(as the EC was called then) was held in 1975 under Harold Wilson's Premiership.


Yes, you're right of course. We had the whole issue of the coalition government and Wilson returning to power after Heath's brief tenure at No. 10. Still, it was Heath who was the main architect of our application to join the Common Market.

Either way, I didn't feel that I was qualified to make a judgment either way at the ballot box so I effectively abstained.



I voted Not to join the common market.....and I would vote the same today Mad
_________________
I like hedgehog crisps
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ruddlescat



Joined: 16 Sep 2010
Posts: 18010
Location: Near Chester

PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree Hedgehog and I also voted against it and would do the same again

Of course what people approved in the 1975 referendum was being part of a European trade organisation where there would be cooperation between members but on the basis each country remained a sovereign and independent state

Over the years politicians of all parties have coerced the British people down the road of European integration to the point now where the majority of our laws are made in Brussels and we no longer have the power to prevent prisoners from voting or even to give cheaper car insurance to safer female drivers

Margaret Thatcher did her best to swim against this tide but even she had limited success in opposing the European agenda

Most politicians constantly ignore the electorate on this issue not just in Britain but also in France and Germany the majority of whose populations also want to remain sovereign states

Although I normally vote Conservative I'll be voting UKIP in the next election unless the present Government starts standing up to the dictators in Brussels just like we stood up to Hitler in World War Two
_________________
Are you ready for a Ruddles?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ColinB
Guest





PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm on the fence where the EU (in its current form) is concerned. Last year, I was able to bid for work for a Luxembourg-based organisation that I just wouldn't have been able to do if there were trade barriers and tarrifs. I also did some work for a Spanish organisation in Madrid that helped to pay my bills.

I'm very much in favour of a "common, open, Europe-wide market" but I don't like the "Political State of Europe" concept at all. I was once in favour of the UK's joining the Single European Currency (the Euro) largely because it would make it much easier to compete on a level playing field, but after the experiences of the last three years I've now changed my mind completely.

I do invoice my European Union clients in Euros, though, so it's quite a risk - especially when lead times are lengthy.
Back to top
RockitRon



Joined: 07 Dec 2006
Posts: 7565

PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ColinB wrote:

I'm very much in favour of a "common, open, Europe-wide market" but I don't like the "Political State of Europe" concept at all.


I think that is how most people feel.

The original pemise (at least, the way the idea was sold to us) was a Common Market, to facilitate "free trade" between the member countries - free of duties and bureaucracy, and a single currency would have helped to achieve that as well. The political behemoth that is now the EU, with all its interference in countries' laws and social customs, came later.

Forty years on from our joining, and more than fifty years from its inception, the "free trade" idea has yet to be realised. (I'm just sore that, if I want to buy a music CD of a French artist - eg Ben l'Oncle Soul - I can only get it from Amazon France, which uses a lousy Euro-Sterling exchange rate and charges E9 postage (the Free service not being available) and then it turns out that the thing is posted from their depot at Glenrothes Evil or Very Mad )
_________________
Ron
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ruddlescat



Joined: 16 Sep 2010
Posts: 18010
Location: Near Chester

PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Colin, I entirely agree

That's what the whole EEC thing was supposed to be about
Abolishing trade tarrifs between member states and creating a level playing field in order to help every country within the organisation
It was never supposed to be a political or monetary union

And ask yourself has the whole concept helped Britain
We have more expensive fuel costs than most of Europe not to mention more expensive alcohol charges, car prices and travel costs just to mention a few examples and other countries like Norway and Switzerland with much smaller populations and smaller economies than ours have prospered quite happily over the last thirty years prior to the current recession

The single currency has been a complete disaster which many of us predicted years ago and even outside it we are having to spend billions bailing out the likes of Greece, Ireland and probably others before very long

There is a secret agenda amongst mainstream European politicians to force everyone into a United States of Europe whether the ordinary people want it or not and perhaps it's time we had a revolution here - a revolution to take back the right to run our own country how we want rather than what suits other people
_________________
Are you ready for a Ruddles?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Helen May



Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 18214
Location: Cheshire

PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 11:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RockitRon wrote:
ColinB wrote:

I'm very much in favour of a "common, open, Europe-wide market" but I don't like the "Political State of Europe" concept at all.


I think that is how most people feel.


Me included Colin and Ron!

H
_________________
88 - 91 FM this is Radio 2 from the BBC!

I said it live on air in the studio with Jeremy Vine on 10/3/2005
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Cherskiy



Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 3699
Location: near Amble, Northumberland

PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 12:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ColinB wrote:
In principle, I'm certainly a supporter of referenda as being a measure of the majority of public opinion, but what we mustn't forget is that people can only cast a meaningful vote one way or the other is if they're properly informed about all of the issues for and against. Unfortunately, it's the same people who actually part with actual money to vote for some silly X-factor nonentity who then can't be bothered to exercise their hard-won right to vote in political elections. Can these people be trusted to make sensible decisions in a referendum?.


Thanks, Colin - that is exactly what I was getting at - we won't get all the facts on the pros and cons of each side's POV, and I can see the negative points re changing the system being drowned out by people voting yes just because they want to sit outside the pub for an extra hour, without realising the ramifications.

Given the way that society is dumbing down nowadays (and I'd like to think most people on this forum are exempt from that statement), I wouldn't trust the "Great British Public" to make meaningful collective decisions anymore. Nor do I trust politicians with a "free vote", as they'll forgo their consciences and vote how they reckon the majority of their voters (or those loud enough to register in numbers) would decide.
_________________
Cherskiy

You call *that* low?

Say hello to me at: http://www.myspace.com/cherskiy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
ruddlescat



Joined: 16 Sep 2010
Posts: 18010
Location: Near Chester

PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But am I not right in thinking that politicians are or at least should be elected to Parliament in order to represent the views of the majority of their constituents and NOT to vote in accordance with whatever personal views they may have on a particular issue?

Perhaps with the exception of real moral issues such as abortion, blood sports and the like

What we need in this country is a more direct form of democracy
I bet most people who voted for Nick Clegg would agree Smile
_________________
Are you ready for a Ruddles?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    R2OK! Forum Index -> Coffee Bar All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © phpBB Group. Hosted by phpBB.BizHat.com