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Military Action On Libya
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mark occomore



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PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 9:10 pm    Post subject: Military Action On Libya Reply with quote

I had to hold my breath when I heard the news. Yet again the UK are dragged into someone else war!!
Sad


Last edited by mark occomore on Sun Mar 20, 2011 7:41 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Fred



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 12:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

From my point of view, its not so much the fact that we're intervening that I'd want to question (rightly or wrongly, we have more of an "interest" in Libya than we did in Iraq), but more the fact that its taken so long that its almost too late.
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Blondehedgehog



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 9:00 am    Post subject: Re: Military Action In Libya Reply with quote

mark occomore wrote:
I had to hold my breath when I heard the news. Yet again the UK are dragged into someone else war!!
Sad



We have not been dragged in. It is all legal. I agree with Fred.....it took too long to get started.
If you understand the politics and the life the people of north Africa have had to live under you would not be so negative. They only want what we take for granted in the west.
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ruddlescat



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm afraid I have to disagree with Hedgehog and Fred on this issue

Whilst I have tremendous sympathy for the ordinary people in Libya who are being threatened daily by that dreadful tyrant Gaddaffi and whilst I accept that our actions are entirely legal (unlike Iraq) Britain as a nation is on its knees financially and the ordinary taxpayers in Britain are now expected to fund this action where I believe every cruise missile fired costs us in the region of half a million pounds

The action taken in the Falklands many years ago was to protect British citizens and British territory but Britain has no interest in Libya in exactly the same way as we have no interest in Iraq or for that matter Afghanistan

It is not the job of our country to resolve all injustices everywhere in the world at a time when services at home are being cut to the bone and large numbers of jobs are being lost and this country should make drastic cuts in foreign aid and concentrate on getting our own economy and country back on its feet

It seems strange to me that if the argument in this case is to protect foreign civilians why in that case did we not take similar action to protect the citizens of Zimbabwe many years ago at a time when Britain WAS in a better economic position to do so and where at least there was some British interest Zimbabwe being a former member of the Commonwealth

On top of all this the current action in Libya will in all probability lead to even higher fuel prices for everyone in Britain because of instability on the world oil markets and this is a situation which will affect all of us

The whole situation is ludicrous and not properly thought out and I for one strongly object to the actions of our Government on this issue
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becky sharp



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 12:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Depends I suppose which way you look at this.....do we stand by and let a despot kill his people (our brothers and sisters on this earth) for wanting democracy and liberties that we take for granted . ....or do we try to help them ....I'm for the latter course of action

I don't find it comparable to talk of cuts back here at home at all ..we are talking of people's lives here not whether we can afford that new car/TV we have our eye on

And yes comparisons can and will be made to Mugabe (or other tyrannical regimes for that matter) ..and yes the UN should have done something in those circumstances too but just because it didn't there do we sit back and say well it didn't help there so I don't see why it should help here either?.

It's about time we, as a world united,say a big NO to these madmen who would keep their countrymen on their knees whilst they spend their lives in luxury....BUT,be consistent about it!.
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Helen May



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree Becky, especially over the consistency.

I don't know if we will have sufficient forces left though after all of these cutbacks.

H
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ruddlescat



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Becky, I hear what you're saying but try telling that to someone who is about to be evicted from their home here in Britain because their business has been forced to close as a direct result of the present economic problems

In a perfect world of course we should help the ordinary people of Libya and every other country where ordinary people are being oppressed but that is not realistic unless we have a bottomless pit of money which we clearly do not

I've nothing against the principle of helping downtrodden people if it can be reasonably afforded but at the present time it clearly cannot

We as a nation have already had to shoulder a vast burden in Iraq and it's still going on in Afghanistan and I don't see many of our EU so called partners rushing to help us either financially or militarily

It's about time this country stopped being such a soft touch and started to demand that others do their fair share for what they claim to support
rather than believing that there is some divine requirement for us to step in every time there is a problem in the world

We are a small country with a huge budget deficit and I firmly believe that where resources are limited charity begins at home
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Blondehedgehog



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is not just Brits in this 'no fly' action. It is other countries like Canada, Spain, Italy and others not mentioned in the first list. In fact the French lead the first drop.

On SKY this morning Hague stated that the Arab countries were putting forward a lot of the funding.
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ruddlescat



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's a very fair comment Hedgehog

As I said I've nothing against the principle of what's now going on but I just worry about the cost

If the Arab League with the benefit of their large oil revenues and others can provide decent funding to cover the costs involved I would be a lot happier about the whole situation because then our input would be military expertise rather than money

Perhaps that's the angle David Cameron should be coming from
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becky sharp



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And I hear what you're saying,ruddles I just don't happen to agree with it for the reasons I've already set out in my previous post

If my family were facing possible eviction or death I know what my preferred option would be.
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Helen May



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's reassuring to hear that Arab countries are joining in as well as Canada who is usually fairly neutral. Latest to be joining in is Qatar.

H
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Blondehedgehog



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is hope.......

The Libyian army has just said there will be a cease fire from 7pm to night.

Now...the last time is was Gaddafi who said there would be a cease fire.

I am wondering if the army is turning against Gaddafi
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mark occomore



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 7:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ruddlescat wrote:
I'm afraid I have to disagree with Hedgehog and Fred on this issue

Whilst I have tremendous sympathy for the ordinary people in Libya who are being threatened daily by that dreadful tyrant Gaddaffi and whilst I accept that our actions are entirely legal (unlike Iraq) Britain as a nation is on its knees financially and the ordinary taxpayers in Britain are now expected to fund this action where I believe every cruise missile fired costs us in the region of half a million pounds

The action taken in the Falklands many years ago was to protect British citizens and British territory but Britain has no interest in Libya in exactly the same way as we have no interest in Iraq or for that matter Afghanistan

It is not the job of our country to resolve all injustices everywhere in the world at a time when services at home are being cut to the bone and large numbers of jobs are being lost and this country should make drastic cuts in foreign aid and concentrate on getting our own economy and country back on its feet

It seems strange to me that if the argument in this case is to protect foreign civilians why in that case did we not take similar action to protect the citizens of Zimbabwe many years ago at a time when Britain WAS in a better economic position to do so and where at least there was some British interest Zimbabwe being a former member of the Commonwealth

On top of all this the current action in Libya will in all probability lead to even higher fuel prices for everyone in Britain because of instability on the world oil markets and this is a situation which will affect all of us

The whole situation is ludicrous and not properly thought out and I for one strongly object to the actions of our Government on this issue


It's a feet to fly planes from the UK on a 3000 mile round trip. Missiles cost around 400,000 each. The cost can be met by other countires, but we still need to find some money. I know ground troops won't be deployed yet, but my guess they will move some close the region?
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark O'Moiree wrote:
It's a feet to fly planes from the UK on a 3000 mile round trip.


I calculate that it's 5,280,000 feet, in fact.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ruddlescat wrote:
It seems strange to me that if the argument in this case is to protect foreign civilians why in that case did we not take similar action to protect the citizens of Zimbabwe many years ago at a time when Britain WAS in a better economic position to do so and where at least there was some British interest Zimbabwe being a former member of the Commonwealth.


Don't really want to argue with you again, but I think you'll find that UN backing for action against Zimbabwe would have been sadly lacking, the Russians and the Chinese (the latter having supplied arms to Mugabe's regime at various times recently) would have vetoed any resolution to that effect and therefore any action taken by the UK would probably have been unilateral, illegal and virtually impossible given the lack of suitable nearby bases, basing rights and overflying rights. Also, South Africa - arguably the most influencial of all nations in that part of the world - didn't even back up the West's opinion of the country and its ruling elite, preferring to stand idly by.
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ruddlescat



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh I think what you say Cherskiy is probably very true but it just illustrates the double standards which exist not just amongst the policy makers in Britain but also those within the UN and probably in other places

Sadly at the end of the day it usually comes down to vested interests with these things
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What will the UN do if the Saudis decided to turn on any citizens' uprising against the Royal Family and Government? Not a lot, I suspect.
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mark occomore



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sending in ground troops is the last resort. You dam if you do, and you dam if you don't!!... In the end they need a Gaddafi to leave and bring a democratic country together. The regime will think they are being targeted with another wave of attacks in around Tripoli, which could lead to the good libyans turning against the coalition forces.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It will all end in disaster just like Iraq and Afghanistan at ridiculous expense to the British taxpayers

I really do despair about this country Evil or Very Mad
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mark occomore



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ruddlescat wrote:
It will all end in disaster just like Iraq and Afghanistan at ridiculous expense to the British taxpayers

I really do despair about this country Evil or Very Mad


The PM's are not moaning at present with the long range missions from the RAF in the UK. If it does continue then a movement of the planes should be moved closer to libya. I wonder why they can't use one of the US aircraft carriers which are in the region.
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Lord Evan Elpuss



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mark occomore wrote:

I wonder why they can't use one of the US aircraft carriers which are in the region.

I remember a time, not very long ago in fact, when we had aircraft carriers of our own wheich we could send where needed!
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mark occomore



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Evan Elpuss wrote:
mark occomore wrote:

I wonder why they can't use one of the US aircraft carriers which are in the region.

I remember a time, not very long ago in fact, when we had aircraft carriers of our own wheich we could send where needed!


I have never heard of a country bringing out an aircraft carrier which is being mothballed!!.... A little too late Mr Cameron. Military cuts and another war to deal with..
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ruddlescat



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We should stay out of this problem

Not only can we not afford it but it will make this country an even bigger target for terrorism

It's about time Britain started to think about it's own interests in these matters
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mark occomore wrote:
I have never heard of a country bringing out an aircraft carrier which is being mothballed!!.... A little too late Mr Cameron. Military cuts and another war to deal with..


HMS Invincible was about to embark for Australia when Thatcher took on the Argies in the Falklands conflict. It was a perfect excuse for a U-turn as indeed all this Libya bullshit is for CamerCon now.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Because we are in a position to help, and it's the only way to think that if the boot was on the other foot, others would come to help us and because I think some things like life are more important than money it is the right thing to do while the UN security council have agreed.

and to quote Cameron just because we haven't gone everywhere doesn't mean we shouldn't go anywhere.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 10:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ruddlescat wrote:
It's about time Britain started to think about it's own interests in these matters


A word that describes the British interest is "oil", as it was in Iraq.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 6:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

becky sharp wrote:
Depends I suppose which way you look at this.....do we stand by and let a despot kill his people (our brothers and sisters on this earth) for wanting democracy and liberties that we take for granted . ....or do we try to help them ....I'm for the latter course of action

I don't find it comparable to talk of cuts back here at home at all ..we are talking of people's lives here not whether we can afford that new car/TV we have our eye on

And yes comparisons can and will be made to Mugabe (or other tyrannical regimes for that matter) ..and yes the UN should have done something in those circumstances too but just because it didn't there do we sit back and say well it didn't help there so I don't see why it should help here either?.

It's about time we, as a world united,say a big NO to these madmen who would keep their countrymen on their knees whilst they spend their lives in luxury....BUT,be consistent about it!.



Well said,totally agree
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ruddlescat



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I understand what you're saying Colin but in actual fact Libyan oil production presently accounts for only around 2% of world oil production

The problem is the current instability in Libya partially as a result of our Government's recent actions is the major factor pushing up ALL world oil prices and even if Gaddaffi is toppled there is no guarantee that the regime which replaces him is going to be any more helpful to Britain in terms of providing cheap oil

We could have a regime similar to Iran or Syria which will only create further problems

For Britain to be able to justify the vast expense of this operation there must be some good reason why Britain needs to get involved and if the Arab League covers all the cost and we simply provide military expertise then I can live with it but I do not see why ordinary British people should be expected to fund the cost of action which is unaffordable and probably ill advised

It is interesting that the Libyan rebels seem to be thanking Monsieur Sarcosi rather than David Cameron for taking the lead in this case and it is also interesting that in an opinion poll today 53% of British people questioned were opposed to what is being done in our name

The days are long gone when Britain could afford to act as policeman for the whole world and we should be concentrating on getting our huge budget deficit under control rather than doing unnecessary things which are going to make it even worse with little or no thanks from the rest of the world
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What bugs me is that 550-odd UN representatives voted in favour of the absurdly-named "no fly zone" but how come it comes down to a handful of states to enforce it?

When the Eton-boys Cameron and Osborne next talk about how "we're all in this recession together" and that we have to pay the cost of regenerating the economy, I'm going to tell them to get stuffed! If they have a reserve fund for this malarkey then such funds are being mis-used.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gadaffi, has claimed that all the recent uprisings have Al Qadea behind them.

I know the guy is fond of a bit of propaganda, but what if he is right???
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This subject was covered on the JV show today from which it was quite apparent that there were a significantly large number of callers who all questioned whether this action could be afforded in the light of the current squeeze on the family budgets of ordinary British working people

A defence expert reckoned that based on MOD figures if the attacks continue only for a week it will have cost us as a nation 20 million

For the cost of each cruise missile fired we could pay the salaries of 35 policemen on the beat for a year in Britain or keep all of Dorset's 34 public libraries open just to quote two examples and if you then multiply that by the number of missiles which will be used we are talking about a very significant sum

I agree with you Colin in respect of your comments about Cameron and Osbourne but please don't forget that Mr Milliband and his rag bag of cohorts have all supported the Government on this issue and only a few decent MPs from all parties have had the guts to stand up and speak the truth Sad
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 1:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ruddlescat wrote:
I agree with you Colin in respect of your comments about Cameron and Osbourne but please don't forget that Mr Milliband and his rag bag of cohorts have all supported the Government on this issue and only a few decent MPs from all parties have had the guts to stand up and speak the truth Sad


sorry Ruds are you saying that by agreeing they are lying ?
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dis, I am saying that both our Government and opposition politicians are supporting this disastrous project for PR reasons in order to make themselves look good instead of spelling out to the British people the real price which the country will have to pay in financial,military and diplomatic terms

If Gaddaffi is overthrown and an extreme Islamic regime replaces him I think many people here will be worried and of course if we have a repeat of the Lockerbie disaster happening to a British aircraft in the near future I think we will all know who to blame

The golden rule should be to keep out of foreign policy issues in countries with which we have no connection unless British interests are directly affected such as was the case with the Falklands where there was a real interest in Britain getting involved to protect its own citizens
Saudi Arabia and the Arab League should be sorting out the Libyan problem because they have a regional interest and more importantly the financial resources to do so
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ruddlescat wrote:
If Gaddaffi is overthrown and an extreme Islamic regime replaces him I think many people here will be worried and of course if we have a repeat of the Lockerbie disaster happening to a British aircraft in the near future I think we will all know who to blame


Big IF Rud, as horrible as it is for any of the families of our servicemen involved this is the right thing to do. We should not be changing our foreign policy because of what Islamic terrorists may or may not do, Gadaffi was about to exterminate anyone who disagreed with him.

This is the right thing to do, as I posted earlier if it was happening here I would like to think that some friendly nations would commit to helping prevent genocide
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dis, in that case why did we not do the same in Zimbabwe a few years ago at a time when we COULD afford the cost

And why not in Ruanda or in Nigeria when the Hutus were slaughtering the Tutsies?

The answer is because we cannot afford to intervene in every single place in the world where slaughter of innocents is going on however much we may sympathise with them

As I said earlier I could live with our country offering military assistance with the obvious risk to our brave service personnel if the oil rich Arab states covered the cost of the operation instead of the hard pressed British taxpayer having to pick up the bill

And by the way when the Falklands war was going on which foreign countries incurred any expense in helping British citizens there?

America helped with intelligence as did Chile mainly due to their long standing hostility towards Argentina but no foreign country spent millions of pounds helping our civilians

I dislike Gaddaffi just as much as anyone else in Britain but this is a middle east problem which needs to be sorted out by the regional powers in that part of the world not by us
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

undiscovered wrote:
This is the right thing to do,


Time will tell, I wish I was as sure as you.

Remember we are not told the full story, and we are just as susceptible to propaganda as any other country.

And as ruds points out, why not Zimbabwe, Yemen, Tunisia or Bahrain??

I only hope that this does not come back and bite us on the a55.
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ruddlescat



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kengeo, I had to laugh when I read your last post because at first I thought you were talking about biting us on the A55

That's a dual carriageway road a few miles from my house

Perhaps I should think about moving PDQ Shocked
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Cherskiy



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mark occomore wrote:
The PM's are not moaning at present with the long range missions from the RAF in the UK. If it does continue then a movement of the planes should be moved closer to libya. I wonder why they can't use one of the US aircraft carriers which are in the region.


Because neither Tornado nor Typhoon are marinised, therefore can't operate from carriers. All Harriers have been declared non-operational and it would take a U-turn from HMG to put them back into service. Much as I'd like to see us having a fixed-wing naval air arm, I can't see it happening any time soon.
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Cherskiy



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ruddlescat wrote:
And by the way when the Falklands war was going on which foreign countries incurred any expense in helping British citizens there?

America helped with intelligence as did Chile mainly due to their long standing hostility towards Argentina but no foreign country spent millions of pounds helping our civilians


It was a lot different back in '82 - the Cold War polarised a lot of opinion and made both sides arguably blind to much of what went on, especially if it was directed against states or factions that supported the other side. NATO could not operate out of Europe - this was hardwired into its constitution - and no-one wanted to do anything to provoke the Russians, who at that time still had a fairly effective blue-water navy. In addition, most NATO naval assets were tasked with keeping tabs on Russian subs so couldn't be spared once we'd pulled most RN vessels off their normal duties. The Americans didn't want to get overtly involved in South America as they were trying to play nice, at the same time keeping the Reds out of the continent.

Apparently the Americans had quietly offered to lend us one of their LPHs (their term for an assault carrier) if we had lost either Invincible or Hermes although you won't find that in the official record. Some of their LPHs actually embarked USMC AV-8A Harriers so were of similar if not exactly same design.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cherskiy wrote:
Apparently the Americans had quietly offered to lend us one of their LPHs (their term for an assault carrier) if we had lost either Invincible or Hermes although you won't find that in the official record.


Hermes? Blimey! That carrier was in Devonport for a refit when I was working there one summer (I think it was 1974) - it was in the dock next to the building I was working in. It was a bit of a rust-bucket then!

I do remember the almighty racket from the Sea Harriers as they landed on the deck as the ship was ready to be pushed out. What a deafening noise!

On another note, a Naval Dockyard Shipwright friend of mine worked flat out on the conversion of the requisitioned Atlantic Conveyor in order to get it ready to carry aircraft parts, helicopters, supplies and god-knows-what-else to the Falklands...........

....... only for it to be sunk when it got there!

That was largely the reason why the Marines (many from Plymouth) and Paras had to yomp it across to Port Stanley.
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