R2OK!

mark occomore · Joined: 07 Dec 2006 Posts: 9955 Location: UK

Although the word Pubs should have the s removed, as it seems the pub trade isn't going well...

ruddlescat · Joined: 16 Sep 2010 Posts: 18010 Location: Near Chester

For God's sake is there nothing in life which this dreadful man Evans will not ruin

Having already done serious harm to Radio One and then Radio Two and even more recently The One Show it's quite obvious to me that he's now out to ruin our traditional good old fashioned British local

Don't get me wrong in these times of financial stringency I realise that local pubs may struggle especially in rural areas and I've no problem with them branching out into providing great food for customers but it should be quality pub food with the traditional pub business remaining to the fore and our traditional institutions should not be turned into restaurants which have little to do with traditional pub culture

As a member of CAMRA I visit many great pubs every year and many of them serve excellent food but with local people still being keen to go there for a couple of decent pints or even a nice pint of real cider

My experience is that once the restaurant aspect comes to dominate the running of pubs then very quickly prices go through the roof and locals are put off from visiting because they can no longer get a decent pint at a reasonable price and you very soon end up with a place only ever visited by well heeled people most of whom do not live locally and who have little if any connection with the local area and probably even less interest in it

I realise that Evans is not unique in this and in fact he is probably a very small player in what is very big business but it is nevertheless indicative of what the man is like - intent on destroying what many people in Britain hold very dear Sad

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ColinB · Guest

RockitRon · Joined: 07 Dec 2006 Posts: 7646

That's quite an extraordinary reaction, ruddles... and I thought you were a lawyer.

Chris Evans* bought and invested further money in what appear to be (I haven't been to any myself) three good quality country inns, and, apart from making an appearance now and again, appears to have left the running of them to professional teams. They ran into planning difficulties with the one at Usk in Monmouth, and he* sold it last year to Celtic Manor Resort. The Mulberry Inn near Guildford has been expanded and is still open. (*His company Evans Pubs Co Ltd)

The Lickfold Inn near Petworth was bought and refurbished, and he promised that 50% of the profits would go to local children's charities. After three years, and despite some reasonably favourable reports such as http://www.alastairbathgate.com/2010/03/10/lickfold-inn-surrey/ it was making losses which could not be sustained, and it was closed and put on the market.

This is nothing new. The country, both towns and rural areas, is littered with closed pubs, inns, restaurants and hotels. Good and bad, ancient and modern, little and large, basic and sumptuous, chain-owned and independent.

It's no surprise that the sale is proving difficult. No-one wants to buy such businesses at the moment, and, as it is a Grade II Listed building, the possibilities for alternative use or development must be limited.

None of which is Evans' fault as such, and to accuse him of ruining the pubs is... well, I'm sure you'll have a word for it.

If the "celebrity" connection hadn't been there it wouldn't have been worth even the small mention that it has got. To anyone other than Evans himself it's irrelevant, or, as Colin says, who gives a toss?
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Ron

ruddlescat · Joined: 16 Sep 2010 Posts: 18010 Location: Near Chester

I was making a much more general point Ron rather than simply whether Chris Evans may or may not have ruined three long established local pubs by turning them into restaurants

As I said he is a very small player in what has become a big trend but it still gives us an inkling of how he is happy to destroy long established British traditions on a personal whim which ties in with what has been happening with Radio Two

Of course we all know that currently twenty five pubs mainly in rural areas are closing every week and it's a very sad situation but the way forward is for pubs especially in rural areas to diversify by perhaps having local post offices based within them or perhaps even convenience stores but basically things which allow the local pub to survive based on its traditional local custom

Personally I think that planning rules need to be changed to help local pubs to diversify and I also think that the tax take on draught beer served in pubs should be reduced with a corresponding increase on the tax on alcohol sold in supermarkets and off licenses because as we all know people drinking in pubs are generally fairly well behaved because there is an element of supervision whereas people who buy large amounts of booze from supermarkets and then drink it in the street tend to be the cause of many social nuisance problems

I've nothing against restaurants or people who wish to provide jobs for people but to destroy the unique character of the traditional British pub is to destroy an important part of our culture

I really don't see what the fact that I am a lawyer has to do with this issue because really it's a matter of common sense

I'm not accusing Chris Evans of singlehandedly destroying the British local but by operating his pubs in the way that he does (or did) he is contributing to a bad trend

And yes I think he will struggle to offload pubs in the present climate but if he is successful I just hope that they will carry on as what they should be i.e. a local hostelry to serve local people and be a focal point for their community

Like Colin,I don't give a toss about Evans or any of his business ventures but I do care a great deal about the urgent need to preserve the unique character of our great British local
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Rachel · Guest

Arguably, one could venture that if Chris hadn’t bought, and then invested in the pubs they would have been closed down years ago, so in one sense he’s kept them going, maintaining the amenity for everyone for much longer than would otherwise have been the case. Business is business though, and this clearly demonstrates that if a well-funded, well-run, small group of pubs in the south-east cannot be profitable then maybe the problem is not with the pubs at all but the changing social needs and wants of people in general. Pubs, or to give them their proper name Public Houses need punters, or to give them their proper name, the Public. The old mantra, build it and they will come, doesn’t really work with the ipod/iphone beep beep beep generation; they want you to build it so small they can take it home with them and have the experience under their duvet. Perhaps someone will write a Pub Ap- yes-that should do it.
To preserve our pubs we need first to create a new social interest in them. I’ve not been to a pub in the evening for many-many years: there is no need, Pubs used to be a comparatively warm friendly cosy place where you could spend your evening with your workmates away from your cold, damp, rickety old house, ugly wife and scruffy kids but we all have very comfortable homes in the modern world so we don’t need to escape them. Traditional pubs are smelly, dirty, noisy places full of people you probably don’t like: smokers, drug dealers, and married men who after a few beers think they are God’s gift to women- totally convinced that “fancy a quickie luv” is going to get them into my knickers. Yeah bring that on- not!

ruddlescat · Joined: 16 Sep 2010 Posts: 18010 Location: Near Chester

Oh Rachel, the kind of pub you describe is absolutely the stuff of nightmares and definitely not what I had in mind

Local pubs, especially if they are located in rural areas, in order to survive need to be female friendly, child friendly (at least up to say 9pm) and must be able to offer something that attracts the punters for reasons other than simply having a drink with their mates

That's why I was suggesting that if the village pub also incorporated other facilities such as Post offices, small shops or even libraries then the pub would be seen as a community facility for everyone and not just a male preserve

Local pubs which are successful run things like music quiz nights (I run one myself so I speak from experience) and also curry nights (definitely not Pizza nights Sad

)

There are still many good local pubs around the country and I've come across them in all areas of England and Wales and I find the recommendations in the'Good Pub Guide' are generally spot on as they look at the quality of local pubs overall rather than just on the quality of the beer served

It's totally unacceptable that women who walk into a pub should feel that they are the subject of sexual harrassment and whilst blokes will always notice an attractive woman that's as far as it should go unless the woman concerned indicates otherwise and in the type of places I have in mind it just would not be a problem

Getting back to Chris Evans I am sure he has invested a significant amount of his vast wealth in his pub project but I can't see the point of someone purchasing three pubs and then handing them over to a large group to manage

In my view he would have been better off recruiting local people as licensees and give them a long lease so they would have security and therefore an incentive to build the places into thriving small businesses

If you're going to buy pubs and then hand over everything to a large pub management chain you might as well just let the chain buy them in the first place and save your money
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ruddlescat · Joined: 16 Sep 2010 Posts: 18010 Location: Near Chester

I think Rachel is quoting the stereotypical image of the working class town or city pub before 1970 and she's right in the description being applied to such establishments in that era

However things have moved on since then and I could take Rachel to many local village pubs today where the consumption of alcohol is not the sole 'raison d'etre' for the establishments being there

Of course there are certain pubs often in the centre of large towns and cities where women do get propositioned by both single and married men but this would rarely happen in small rural villages quite simply because everyone in there is local and if any of that mullarkey went on the whole village would be aware of it in double quick time

Back in the 1960's and 70's we had a problem with the dire quality of beer being served in pubs throughout the land and then along came CAMRA and the problem got sorted out very quickly and in fact in my view CAMRA is probably one of the most successful pressure groups ever to have existed in this country because virtually every pub now has decent draught real ale available but the true pub lover now faces a different problem,namely the taking over of old established licensed premises with character and them being turned into large open plan quasi restaurants with little local atmosphere and being the same or very similar whether you visit one in Carlisle, Chester or Cheltenham

This is the problem I was alluding to in my original post but there is still a future for well run small local pubs which are able to offer something slightly different and which serve the needs of the whole community including women and children

Incidentally when I do my Saturday night pub music quiz I generally find that certainly for the first hour and a half or so there are far more women than men in attendance and often their partners only turn up when Match of the Day comes on which proves to me that if a pub provides decent entertainment which women enjoy the pub will reap the rewards in terms of being seen as family orientated

Oh and by the way the profit mark up on drinks consumed by women is generally much higher than that on pints of beer usually drunk by men so it makes sense financially for proprietors to have pubs which are attractive to women and children- after all we all know the mark up on children's drinks like lemonade and coke etc
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Ian Robinson · Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 11:23 am Post subject: Re: Evans Pubs

ColinB · Guest

ColinB · Guest

Rachel · Guest

ColinB · Guest

ruddlescat · Joined: 16 Sep 2010 Posts: 18010 Location: Near Chester

Rachel, I'm surprised that you are able to remember that type of pub bearing in mind your age

I guess that perhaps that kind of outdated institution must have survived in certain former industrial working class areas perhaps for longer than in other places

I'm struggling to remember it because both of my parents were tea total and I'm one of the few people of my generation who never went in a pub until after I was eighteen but as I always say to people I've certainly made up for it since

I know that back in the old days the only time a woman would go to a pub would be to drag out her husband to prevent him from spending the whole family budget instantly and I think that's why there were more tea total people in those days because drink was still seen in many ways as a social evil

My advice is to get yourself an up to date copy of the Good Pub Guide( not the Good Beer Guide as that only concentrates on beer quality) and give the superb local pubs listed a try
You never know you might just like it Smile

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Rachel · Guest

In the late 70s when I was roughly 11-13 ish there was pub which gave money back from returned beer bottles. They stored all the empty beer bottles around the back in an area that was inaccessible from the front of the Pub but if you walked along the railway line (not a main-line) behind the pub , and had some pretty large and strong older brothers they could lower you – a slim petit slip of girl down over a quite high wall as I remember , then you could stock up with a carrier-bag of bottles, which once recovered to the safety of the railway line were shared out – taken back around the front of the pub and cashed in, I think it was 5p per bottle. This worked well until the pub owners bought a large nasty dog. Kids eh. Smile

Anyway I digress, this particular pub was as rough as a rat catcher’s dog. Maybe my aversion to going in pubs is some in-built psychological defence mechanism that kicks in to protect me from the guilt I would suffer after having stolen many-many empty beer bottles to cash-in the deposit. Perhaps sub-consciously I’m still worried about being caught or recognised as The Great Northumbrian Bottle Blagger – well at least one of them.

I do like County Pubs but only for lunch- there’s zillions of them here in Dorset. I take my ladies out to one most weeks. The Bakers Arms just off the A35 at Lytchett Minster near Poole is one of our haunts.

http://www.vintageinn.co.uk/thebakersarmspoole/

OMG! I just noticed there is an iphone pub ap! I'm so behind the times.

ColinB · Guest

ruddlescat · Joined: 16 Sep 2010 Posts: 18010 Location: Near Chester

What an enterprising thing to do at that age Rachel

Whilst I know one shouldn't condone such behaviour it certainly beats having to ask your parents for pocket money

I'm sure I've seen an old episode of Heartbeat where something similar happened

Helen might remember something about the old days of pubs in the north east as she's about the same age as Colin and me

I was going to check out the local pub you quote in my copy of the Guide but I've just remembered I lent it to my cousin -I'll check to see whether the pub's listed when I get a minute at a later date

I haven't spent much time in Dorset but from what I recall it's a lovely county with great pubs and Badger beers from Dorset are some of my favourites and yes if you like a quiet meal in pleasant surroundings lunchtime can be the best slot to choose
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Rachel · Guest

I don't think it was my idea, Rudds- I was just a pawn in my older brothers' scheme. You don't know the half of it. It was torture having six older brothers- quite literally. I'm surprised that I've turned out quite normal.

ColinB · Guest

Back in the days when life was in black & white, loads of kids used to take bottles back for refunds. When I was a kid we used to take bottles back to the offie down the road for a 3d refund per bottle.

One old dear used to pay me and my friend Stuart 6d each to take a whole crate-load of Mackeson bottes back to the offie - and then we pocketed the refunds as well!

ruddlescat · Joined: 16 Sep 2010 Posts: 18010 Location: Near Chester

I think bringing back deposits on bottles is a great idea

Not only would it give people an incentive to return them (ie recycle) I'll guarantee you'd have gangs of youngsters scouring every bit of waste land in Britain for old bottles they could make money on thus making big inroads into our horrendous litter problems

At least that goes for the ones who are not spoiled rotten by their parents to the extent they don't need to bother

Come to think about it,the way this country is going you'd probably have some of the parents doing it too Shocked

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PJ in Kent · Joined: 11 Dec 2006 Posts: 1102 Location: Go on, guess!