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mark occomore
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ruddlescat
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 Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 9:32 am Post subject: Re: 'Selfie' |
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Just shows how grammatical standards continue to slip in this wonderful multi cultural society 
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Minx
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| Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 10:14 am Post subject: |
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So I guess 'belfie' isn't going to make it either. Which, as I understand it, means to take a photo of your bum - much beloved by that dreadful K-whatsit family, whose claim to celebrity escapes me.
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Colin
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| Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 10:35 am Post subject: Re: 'Selfie' |
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| ruddlescat wrote: | | Just shows how grammatical standards continue to slip in this wonderful multi cultural society |
I've only just recently become aware of the term "selfie". It doesn't really bother me, to be honest. It's a young people's term commonly used on social media. Haven't young people always come up with their own expressions and phrases? I don't see as a slipping of grammatical standards - it's merely part of the evolution of language, surely? |
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becky sharp
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| Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 2:33 pm Post subject: Re: 'Selfie' |
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| mark occomore wrote: | | Quote: | | "Selfie" has been named as word of the year by Oxford Dictionaries. |
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-24992393 |
shortlisted words included "twerk" - a raunchy dance move performed by Miley Cyrus.
Not sure if it's on here that or elsewhere that I've seen the true definition of twerk which means "To work" in Yorkshire speak.
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ruddlescat
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| Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 10:29 pm Post subject: Re: 'Selfie' |
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[quote="Colin"] | ruddlescat wrote: | | Just shows how grammatical standards continue to slip in this wonderful multi cultural society |
I've only just recently become aware of the term "selfie". It doesn't really bother me, to be honest. It's a young people's term commonly used on social media. Haven't young people always come up with their own expressions and phrases? I don't see as a slipping of grammatical standards - it's merely part of the evolution of language, surely?[/quote
Gradual evolution is fine and quite natural over a long period of time but thanks to these dreadful so called 'social media' sites we are being fed a diet of American speak and made up words which don't contribute anything additional to our valued English language and only serve to irritate people like me of whom I am sure there are many
Just cast your mind back to the late sixties when words like 'groovy' were flavour of the month but who really uses such words today in regular conversation?
The Oxford English Dictionary should be in the business of preserving and protecting our valued language not promoting so called new language which represents a passing fad and will be unheard of in fifty years time 
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ruddlescat
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| Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 10:29 pm Post subject: Re: 'Selfie' |
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[quote="Colin"] | ruddlescat wrote: | | Just shows how grammatical standards continue to slip in this wonderful multi cultural society |
I've only just recently become aware of the term "selfie". It doesn't really bother me, to be honest. It's a young people's term commonly used on social media. Haven't young people always come up with their own expressions and phrases? I don't see as a slipping of grammatical standards - it's merely part of the evolution of language, surely?[/quote
Gradual evolution is fine and quite natural over a long period of time but thanks to these dreadful so called 'social media' sites we are being fed a diet of American speak and made up words which don't contribute anything additional to our valued English language and only serve to irritate people like me of whom I am sure there are many
Just cast your mind back to the late sixties when words like 'groovy' were flavour of the month but who really uses such words today in regular conversation?
The Oxford English Dictionary should be in the business of preserving and protecting our valued language not promoting so called new language which represents a passing fad and will be unheard of in fifty years time
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Colin
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| Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 10:41 pm Post subject: |
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I still don't agree. There have been "passing fads" in language since the beginning of time, and communities have been influenced by the language of others since the year dot. My family is Cornish, but you'll hear very little of the native Kernow tongue these days thanks to the influence of foreigners from east of the river Tamar.
Life moves on, as does language. The OED isn't a preserver of language - it provides a representation of what is, here and now. |
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ruddlescat
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| Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 11:09 pm Post subject: |
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I don't think the example of Cornwall - or Kernow - as it used to be called has very much relevance to the present discussion
Whilst I am certainly not an expert I was under the impression that Cornwall used to have its own celtic language which was similar to Welsh being a totally different language from that of the English neighbours across the River Tamar in Devon
That's not what we're talking about here - rather a single language known as English which is being diluted and polluted by foreign influences and short term media speak
We all know that the Welsh language is in decline which is really only what happened in Cornwall many years earlier but that aspect is a totally different subject from that here which I'm very happy to discuss at the appropriate time 
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John W
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| Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 12:07 am Post subject: |
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I don't see much 'wrong' in the word selfie. I suppose it's short for 'self portrait'.
But isn't 'photo' short for 'photograph', and 'phone' short for 'telephone'? Has anyone complained about those words?
Have to say I'm not keen on the word 'innit' it's just a lazy "isn't it"....
but I suppose "isn't it" is just a lazy "is it not", is it not?
and in Scotland it's accepted to say dinnae, cannae, wouldnae and in some parts they say "I wouldnae could" which translates as 'I would not be able to' 
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Colin
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| Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 11:09 am Post subject: |
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| ruddlescat wrote: | | That's not what we're talking about here - rather a single language known as English which is being diluted and polluted by foreign influences and short term media speak |
I don't agree. I'm talking about how language changes on a daily basis. You're referring to an English language that you feel should be set in aspic, but it never can be and has never has been. You say that English has been "polluted by foreign influences" (a strange notion, given the complex origins of what we call "English"), but that's exactly what happened with Cornish and what happens with English on a daily basis.
I still maintain that language is constantly changing as a result of a multitude of influences, and a dictionary such as OED really has to reflect those changes otherwise it has neither relevance nor purpose.
By the way, the word "movie" (slang for "moving picture" or "motion picture") has been in common parlance around the globe for the best part of 100 years. It's also in the OED. |
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John W
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| Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Colin wrote: |
By the way, the word "movie" (slang for "moving picture" or "motion picture") has been in common parlance around the globe for the best part of 100 years. It's also in the OED. |
That is correct, and around 1928 the term 'talkie' was introduced for films with sound/speech. But soon all new movies had sound and, ruddlescat, an example of language development, the word talkie fell from use and 'movie' is the term now used for all films.
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ruddlescat
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| Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 7:01 pm Post subject: |
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I hate the word 'movie' Colin which quite apart from my dislike of all things Murdoch probably explains why I refuse to subscribe to Sky Movies
Simon Bates regularly irritates me during his breakfast show byusing the 'M' word when we all know in proper English it should be the 'F' word
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Colin
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| Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 7:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Ruddles, I did assume that you'd dislike the word "movie" - that's why I made reference to it! The point is that - like "selfie" - it is in common usage and therefore listed in the OED. |
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ruddlescat
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| Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 8:09 pm Post subject: |
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Just because any word is in use doesn't in my view justify it appearing in the OED
Would most people want the 'N' word to appear when talking about black people? - it's in common use in certain circles but surely nobody would justify it being legitimised by an OED reference
The OED in my view should lead and not follow - and the fact is that most of these non grammatical media generated words will probably be dead in the water in a few years time
The plain fact is that the OED like most other formerly revered institutions in this country has simply abandoned its reputation for the sake of being seen to be in the contemporary zone - a very bad place in my view:roll:
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Colin
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| Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 8:37 pm Post subject: |
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Surely what does, and doesn't, get selected depends on what the OED's editors consider is compatible with its remit? If its remit is to capture and reflect the evolving language then such inclusions are justified, in my view. I'd be cool with that, eh dude?
By the way, I'm watching the telly right now. Or should I really refer to it as a "television"?
PS: as mentioned before, "selfie" isn't a media-generated term. It was started by Twitter and Instagram users. |
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ruddlescat
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| Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 8:49 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Colin"]Surely what does, and doesn't, get selected depends on what the OED's editors consider is compatible with its remit? If its remit is to capture and reflect the evolving language then such inclusions are justified, in my view. I'd be cool with that, eh dude?
By the way, I'm watching the telly right now. Or should I really refer to it as a "television"? [/quote
You shouldn't Colin - once a society becomes lazy in its use of language then standards start dropping - it's hardly a cardinal sin but the abbreviation 'telly' has lasted since the 1950s and shows no sign of declining in use - how long do you really think the word 'Selfie' will last - a couple of years maybe =- and by the way - is the slang word 'telly' in the OED? - I don't know whether it is but if so in my view it shouldn't be
I reckon we should revive the language of Latin which is far more grammatical and far more precise - with no slang words from what I recall from almost fifty years ago
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John W
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| Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 8:51 pm Post subject: |
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| ruddlescat wrote: | the fact is that most of these non grammatical media generated words will probably be dead in the water in a few years time
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ruddles, having established here that words like 'photo', 'phone' and 'movie' have survived for decades, I can't see why you expect the demise of words like 'selfie', and other "non grammatical media generated words" like e-mail, text, voicemail etc.
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ruddlescat
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| Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 8:57 pm Post subject: |
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Make a note to check this thread in ten years time John and then we'll review the position and see whose proved right
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FleetingEileenM
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| Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 8:57 pm Post subject: |
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| ruddlescat wrote: |
I reckon we should revive the language of Latin which is far more grammatical and far more precise - with no slang words from what I recall from almost fifty years ago |
Ah ... Latin ... my favourite subject at school. It certainly made me very aware of the rules of grammar and it gave me a lifelong interest in words and their connections.
I believe it is being revived in quite a number of schools. |
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Colin
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| Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 9:24 pm Post subject: |
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| ruddlescat wrote: | | Make a note to check this thread in ten years time John and then we'll review the position and see whose proved right |
Don't you mean "who's" - or, more correctly, "who is"?
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ruddlescat
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| Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 9:55 pm Post subject: |
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Well of course Colin - I was just checking how good your knowledge of language was - congratulations - you passed the test 
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Colin
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| Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 9:57 pm Post subject: |
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| ruddlescat wrote: | | Well of course Colin - I was just checking how good your knowledge of language was - congratulations - you passed the test |
Cool! |
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ruddlescat
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| Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 10:32 pm Post subject: |
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Well I suggest you switch your central heating on Colin - no point in freezing to death
Oh sorry now I see where you're coming from - you're employing one of these new fangled words - not a problem as they say Stateside - cool beans as they say in Dorset
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Colin
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| Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 10:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Sic! |
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ruddlescat
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| Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 10:49 pm Post subject: |
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Lucky I speak the Latin lingo otherwise I might think you'd gone completely mad
When it comes to the purpose of language I assume you subscribe to the philosophy 'non sibi sed omnibus'
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Colin
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| Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 10:52 pm Post subject: |
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Sic is a word young people use to express a positive reaction. At least I think it does. I must check the OED to be sure!
As for Latin, that's foreign isn't it ? |
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ruddlescat
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| Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 10:55 pm Post subject: |
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Not if you go back a few hundred years ago when the Romans started out road building programme
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Colin
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| Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 10:57 pm Post subject: |
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| ruddlescat wrote: | | Not if you go back a few hundred years ago when the Romans started out road building programme |
Ah yes, those "polluting foreign influences"!!!
Now I see...... |
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ruddlescat
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| Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 11:09 pm Post subject: |
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But in those days the English language did not exist in its form today - so all logic suggests that you can't pollute something which doesn't then exist
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John W
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| Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 11:09 pm Post subject: |
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Our English language was invaded to a significant extent in the 1920s thanks to the lyrics of the Jazz Age songs which came to us from USA via sheet music and sung on 78rpm records.
Just looking through titles of some of those songs and the lyrics, it must have been a great shock to the 1920s ruddles-types
The 'word' AIN'T is very common in 1920's song titles and lyrics from USA, and is certainly common throughout USA today, but it was used by Dickens for his Cockney characters in the 19thC so likely goes way back.
Tunes I've used in podcasts recently: Ya Gotta Know How To Love, Ain't It A Shame About Mame , Gimme A Little Kiss Will Ya Huh?, Doggone I've Done It, I'm Gonna Get You.
You can't sing those lyrics any other way.
Oh and a lot of 'Baby' songs: Come On Baby, That's You Baby, I Never Kissed A Baby Like You, Yes Yes, My Baby Said Yes Yes, There Ain't No Maybe In My Baby's Eyes
Oh and those darn double negatives in It Don't Do Nothin' But Rain, or I Don't Want Nobody But You,
Those 1920's changed everything!
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ruddlescat
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| Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 11:33 pm Post subject: |
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Of course that's very true John but I think most of those songs from around 100 years ago would have employed a fair amount of artistic licence in terms of the lyrics which were used in those songs
Musical lyrics don't really have much to do with daily language in the real word although of course they can be an influence on it
I think that certain minorities in America at that time had their own phrases which got into many song lyrics possibly because they felt it set them apart from what they saw as the oppressive majority in their country so from that point of view it's probably entirely understandable
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Colin
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| Posted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 9:11 am Post subject: |
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So, I think it's safe to conclude that language constantly evolves, and it's therefore the responsibility of a respected publication to record and index those changes for posterity.
Yep, that's far out and I can dig that, man! (As they used to say in the 1960s. Allegedly, m'lud.) |
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becky sharp
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| Posted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 8:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Colin wrote: | | ruddlescat wrote: | | That's not what we're talking about here - rather a single language known as English which is being diluted and polluted by foreign influences and short term media speak |
I don't agree. I'm talking about how language changes on a daily basis. You're referring to an English language that you feel should be set in aspic, but it never can be and has never has been. You say that English has been "polluted by foreign influences" (a strange notion, given the complex origins of what we call "English"), but that's exactly what happened with Cornish and what happens with English on a daily basis.
I still maintain that language is constantly changing as a result of a multitude of influences, and a dictionary such as OED really has to reflect those changes otherwise it has neither relevance nor purpose.
By the way, the word "movie" (slang for "moving picture" or "motion picture") has been in common parlance around the globe for the best part of 100 years. It's also in the OED. |
That's as maybe but it is still quite an alien word in our culture as far as I am concerned.
I always think of America when I hear it.
I don't hate the word movie but I can't see myself substituting it for the word film in my every day speak any time soon. |
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ruddlescat
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| Posted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 8:45 pm Post subject: |
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Of course there is also a further relevant point here regarding illogicallityand lack of consistency
Does anyone in Britain call a pavement a 'sidewalk' or the boot of a car the 'trunk or items from the local sweet shop 'candy' or a tap a 'fawcet'- well other than Americans living here
So why does anyone think it's normal to call a film a 'movie'
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Lord Evan Elpuss
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| Posted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 10:36 pm Post subject: |
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| ruddlescat wrote: | Of course there is also a further relevant point here regarding illogicallityand lack of consistency
Does anyone in Britain call a pavement a 'sidewalk' or the boot of a car the 'trunk or items from the local sweet shop 'candy' or a tap a 'fawcet'- well other than Americans living here
So why does anyone think it's normal to call a film a 'movie'
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I'm with you all the way 'ruddlescat', I will not be calling the pavement, a sidewalk in the near future, neither will I be asking for 'fries' with my fish or chicken (I'll have chips)
As far as I'm concerned, that unfortunate casualty was taken (or admitted) to hospital. There is no way that they were 'hospitalised'. What a trully awful word!
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John W
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| Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 11:37 am Post subject: |
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| ruddlescat wrote: | Of course there is also a further relevant point here regarding illogicallityand lack of consistency
Does anyone in Britain call a pavement a 'sidewalk' or the boot of a car the 'trunk or items from the local sweet shop 'candy' or a tap a 'fawcet'- well other than Americans living here
So why does anyone think it's normal to call a film a 'movie'
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'Trunk' is used in the UK auto industry, where I worked for 30 years. It originates from auto design work that would come from US Ford and GM companies, and is continued by the Japanese auto industry. I've worked with all of those companies in UK. Can't remember if Rover/Triumph used the term trunk early on but it became normal when they did design work with Honda for the latter 200, 400, 600 series.
So, I think we choose the US words that we like or are useful. For example many Brits and media folk prefer the word 'movie' to 'film', but the BBC appear to prefer the word film. I always use the word 'movie' in my podcasts when talking about the source of songs - I lived in US for a while and still retain some of their vocabulary.
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becky sharp
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| Posted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 12:26 pm Post subject: |
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| John W wrote: |
'Trunk' is used in the UK auto industry, where I worked for 30 years. . |
Really!...how surprising ...(well it was to me.) |
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ruddlescat
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| Posted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 1:30 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="becky sharp"] | John W wrote: |
'Trunk' is used in the UK auto industry, where I worked for 30 years. . |
Really!...how surprising ...(well it was to me.)[/quote
But surely that's because the vehicle manufacturing industry in Britain used to be almost entirely American owned - before the likes of BMW and the Far Eastern manufacturers took over - so no surprise there
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becky sharp
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| Posted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 1:42 pm Post subject: |
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| ruddlescat wrote: |
But surely that's because the vehicle manufacturing industry in Britain used to be almost entirely American owned - before the likes of BMW and the Far Eastern manufacturers took over - so no surprise there |
But the labour,I'm imagining, was from Britain, hence my surprise. I shouldn't have thought that the American owners were on the shop floor every day influencing how the workers talked. |
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