R2OK!

mark occomore · Joined: 07 Dec 2006 Posts: 9955 Location: UK

Trading standards officials have launched an investigation after drivers complained that they had been sold "contaminated" fuel.

Drivers from across south-east England believe they may have been sold petrol containing ethanol, which has damaged their cars.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6405051.stm

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This should run into millions of pounds as people put in claims for damage to their engines.

Ella Sailyour · Joined: 11 Dec 2006 Posts: 579 Location: Marbella, Spain

mark occomore · Joined: 07 Dec 2006 Posts: 9955 Location: UK

John W · Joined: 07 Dec 2006 Posts: 3367 Location: Warwickshire, UK

AndyAndy2 · Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 8:25 am Post subject:

Is this going to be hard to prove? How soon after putting the fuel in will you notice your car is knackered?

I don't keep receipts from petrol stations, maybe this is a wise thing to do from here on in.
_________________
Some say he once threw a microwave oven at a tramp and that all his potted plants are called 'Steve'.....all we know is, he's called 'The Stig!'.

Behind Geddon's Wall · Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 8:39 am Post subject:

I knew thare was a good reson why I ran a diesel car and live in the North. Embarassed

( Coat in hand, on my way)
_________________
Geddon

You simply mustn't blame yourself -- the days were perfect
And so were exactly what I was born to spoil
For I am the Rider to the World's End
Bound across the cinder causeway
From the furnace to the quarry
Through the fields of oil

SantaFefan · Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 9:02 am Post subject:

Bugger. I filled up at Morrisons last Monday! luckily I still have the receipt. I wonder if one tank will do it? I normally use the Jet station..

Lord Evan Elpuss · Joined: 10 Dec 2006 Posts: 3417 Location: Cloud Cuckoo Land

SantaFefan · Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 10:38 am Post subject:

Yes, the names Virgil, Virgil Tracey.... Laughing

iwarburton · Joined: 08 Dec 2006 Posts: 2133 Location: Northumberland

Is it possible that a deliverer muddled up standard and unleaded petrol and the wrong one was put into various tanks?

A few years ago we bought a new car, forgot that it ran on diesel and put unleaded into it. The resulting symptoms were similar to those which have been experienced in this case.

Ian.

Rachel · Guest

What happens is the O2 sensor (Oxygen sensor- a small probe like thing in the exhaust down pipe- usually) is getting coated with "something" which must be in the fuel ... so it gets gunked up and stops reading the O2 content in the exhaust gas........( this is happening really quickly-- especially if the car's petrol tank was completely empty before filling up)

the ECU ( that's the clever bit of the engine- Engine Control Unit) thinks aha..... I'm putting too much fuel through- cos there's no O2 left in the exhaust gas; hence: the ECU turns down and restricts the fuel to the injectors .. it keeps doing that in an attempt to recover the normal O2 level...( Computers are stupid things) so eventually it shuts off the fuel completely and your car stops or it's switched to emergency mode and allows you to drive very slowly with a light glowing on the dashboard telling you that your engine requires garage attention....

The fix, is to drain all the contaminated fuel out of the tank and replace or clean the O2 sensor before filling up with fuel again... most garages will just fit a new one ( cos they can charge more money that way - but all they really need to do is clean the O2 sensor with a mild solvent and refit it) If your car is between 5 and 10 years old .. there's a pretty good chance you'll need to buy a new exhaust as well cos the o" sensor will probably be rusted into place)

If you drive a really old car over 10 years old ... it will probably not be affected by the contaminated fuel.....

John W · Joined: 07 Dec 2006 Posts: 3367 Location: Warwickshire, UK

Rachel,

A very impressive explanation. So all this time on this board you've just been pretending to be a woman Laughing

Rachel · Guest

John W · Joined: 07 Dec 2006 Posts: 3367 Location: Warwickshire, UK

Nice one Rachel,

Now, are there some additives post-added in UK storage tanks? I remember some 'clean' additives in the early days of unleaded. Do all petrols have these now? Could an error have been made at a depot somewhere, adding twice as much or more? Could those additives clog up the sensor?

I've also heard on TV that some ethanol is added to certain grades of unleaded. Being a chemist I wouldn't think an excess of ethanol would clog the sensor but it might cause problems further into the engine by creating different bi-products of combustion.

John W

gfloyd · Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 2:38 pm Post subject:

Rachel,
I am impressed. This is the best explanation of the problem that I have seen anywhere. Much more concise than most news websites. Exclamation

_________________
His name was ernie ........ and he drove the fastest milk cart in the west.....

Behind Geddon's Wall · Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 2:45 pm Post subject:

John, I was unaware that you too was a chemist. Shocked

_________________
Geddon

You simply mustn't blame yourself -- the days were perfect
And so were exactly what I was born to spoil
For I am the Rider to the World's End
Bound across the cinder causeway
From the furnace to the quarry
Through the fields of oil

Rachel · Guest

The best bet is to stick with a good brand , Shell, BP, ESSO or Texaco

All branded petrol has all sorts of good "stuff" in it to get a better performance from your engine, cleaning agents are part of that and work really well over a period of time with regular use of good quality petrol.

The octane level (RON) is the key to better performance ( Power from the engine). The thing with Octane level is that it drops off, the older the petrol gets...... Shell's best stuff is around 98 and their ordinary is around 95 ... .... the cheaper suppliers buy-up "old" petrol and add even cheaper stuff to it, to recover ( in the short term) the octane level... usually; supermarket petrol is about 93( on a really good day.) .. they do this knowing that they'll sell it cheaply and quickly, so it won't hang around enough for the Octane level to drop so low that the petrol just won't work properly. If they add too much cheap "stuff" to the petrol, it doesn't really ignite or burn properly and the residue from that, trashes the O2 sensor ( and other things)......it's not really what they've put in it that causes the problem , it's the age of the petrol that they started with.... There's a really good reason why supermarket petrol is cheaper.. it's old and filled with a cheap short term enhancer. The static tests will probably show that it's ok , it's only when you try to burn it fully, that the problem occurs.

Having said all of that ... if you drive a mid range average car you would probably never notice the difference in performance, what ever fuel you used, but the cheap fuel is slowly killing your engine. Putting cheap petrol in your car does to your engine what smoking cigarettes does to your lungs....

Oh, in the early days there was a problem with Shell Super Unleaded and they withdrew it after a few months. The cleaning agentsthey had added to keep modern engines running smoothly were gunking up older style engines... but they fixed that a long time ago.

John W · Joined: 07 Dec 2006 Posts: 3367 Location: Warwickshire, UK

Highlander · Joined: 12 Feb 2007 Posts: 348 Location: Scotland

People in the petrochemical industry will not be surprised by the fact that supermarket fuel is causing problems in modern engines. They probably will have bets on as to what valve was left on at which refinery for too long. Whats maybe more surprising is that it has happened so infrequently over the pass few years.

As more and more are beginning to realise - cheap does not always mean cheerful.
_________________
Over the hill they came....the greatest Army in the World.....The Tartan Army

Behind Geddon's Wall · Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 3:37 pm Post subject:

John, I worked in the pharmaceutical industry for 30years, and now working my way through power generation.
_________________
Geddon

You simply mustn't blame yourself -- the days were perfect
And so were exactly what I was born to spoil
For I am the Rider to the World's End
Bound across the cinder causeway
From the furnace to the quarry
Through the fields of oil

Highlander · Joined: 12 Feb 2007 Posts: 348 Location: Scotland

So the AA say they have found silicone in the problem fuel.

From a manufacturer, of the O2 (lambda) sensors, website"

"A lambda sensor's normal life span is 30,000 to 50,000 miles. But the sensor may fail prematurely if it becomes clogged with carbon, or is contaminated by lead from leaded petrol or silicone from an antifreeze leak or from silicone sealer."

Question

_________________
Over the hill they came....the greatest Army in the World.....The Tartan Army

Cherskiy · Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 8:03 pm Post subject:

Would you believe it, I had just filled up at Tesco minutes before the story broke? Happily, Newcastle didn't seem to be affected, but I had visions of conking out somewhere in the Scottish Borders today! Shocked

(I usually alternate between my local Shell garage - for the Air Miles - and Tesco - for the points). Both are as cheap as each other.

Incidentally, there is a website that tells you where your cheapest local station is: http://www.petrolprices.com/
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Author: “To the Ends of the Earth: A Snapshot of Aviation in North-Eastern Siberia, Summer 1992”
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Ella Sailyour · Joined: 11 Dec 2006 Posts: 579 Location: Marbella, Spain

Lord Evan Elpuss · Joined: 10 Dec 2006 Posts: 3417 Location: Cloud Cuckoo Land

Highlander · Joined: 12 Feb 2007 Posts: 348 Location: Scotland

As was reported in the news this evening, supermarket petrol has about 5% bioethanol present. The bioethanol is made from sources such as sugar beet. The bioethanol is concentrated by using a silicalite membrane covered with a silicone rubber sheet to prevent direct contact with acidic compounds. This could be a possible source of the silicone that the AA says it found.

Bioethanol is a great idea but it looks like the QC needs investigating. Also what effects does it have on modern engines? Is there data?

From your resident biotechie (!) Cool

_________________
Over the hill they came....the greatest Army in the World.....The Tartan Army

Cherskiy · Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2007 6:48 am Post subject:

Rachel: you mentioned above that supermarket fuel is usually rated at 93 octance - is that true even if the likes of Tesco advertise 95 and 97 octane on the sides of their pumps?

(I wouldn't be surprised if they were trying to pull a fast one on us....)
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Author: “To the Ends of the Earth: A Snapshot of Aviation in North-Eastern Siberia, Summer 1992”
(Free to read via Kindle Unlimited)

AndyAndy2 · Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2007 7:59 am Post subject:

Morning, Chersk.

Y'know I've got a brand new car and I get my petrol from Tesco, never looked at type (Ron...who's he?)

Need to fill up today actually, hmmm will it be Tesco, my usual or ASDA where the queing system is ludicrous!

Help me out here people.
_________________
Some say he once threw a microwave oven at a tramp and that all his potted plants are called 'Steve'.....all we know is, he's called 'The Stig!'.

Rachel · Guest

gfloyd · Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2007 9:52 am Post subject:

So the Times is reporting today that

"Fuel suppliers knew more than a week ago that petrol had been contaminated while thousands of motorists continued to drive after filling up with the fuel, it was claimed yesterday.

Suppliers were told of a potential problem with unleaded petrol last week but did nothing to warn motorists, said Ray Holloway, director of the Petrol Retailers Association. He said that manufacturers told him last week about an increase in mysterious repairs and that suppliers were informed."
_________________
His name was ernie ........ and he drove the fastest milk cart in the west.....

Cherskiy · Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2007 10:17 am Post subject:

Thanks for the advice, Rachel.... Smile

It would seem that the suppliers felt it prudent to wait to see how big the problem became before admitting they'd found contaminated fuel supplies. A few isolated cases - easier to deny it.
_________________
Author: “To the Ends of the Earth: A Snapshot of Aviation in North-Eastern Siberia, Summer 1992”
(Free to read via Kindle Unlimited)

Ella Sailyour · Joined: 11 Dec 2006 Posts: 579 Location: Marbella, Spain

Cherskiy · Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2007 6:11 pm Post subject:

Yes, you did. Smile

_________________
Author: “To the Ends of the Earth: A Snapshot of Aviation in North-Eastern Siberia, Summer 1992”
(Free to read via Kindle Unlimited)

Highlander · Joined: 12 Feb 2007 Posts: 348 Location: Scotland

And now they are saying that they will have to put up the price of petrol because they can't use this refinery. This is scandalous, as I'm sure there is sufficient fuel in the UK to cover this minor blip from the norm.

Scotland and the North of England as served by Grangemouth on the Firth of Forth. Any problem with a refinery on the Thames should have no or very little impact on areas covered by Grangemouth. We shall wait and see!
_________________
Over the hill they came....the greatest Army in the World.....The Tartan Army

gfloyd · Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 5:52 pm Post subject:

This story seems to have disappeared as quickly as it arose? Is everything sorted now?
_________________
His name was ernie ........ and he drove the fastest milk cart in the west.....

Cherskiy · Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 7:26 pm Post subject:

Tesco placed a full page ad in The Times last Tuesday, apologising for the whole thing saying it was a batch of contaminated fuel, and offering to pay for any repairs.
_________________
Author: “To the Ends of the Earth: A Snapshot of Aviation in North-Eastern Siberia, Summer 1992”
(Free to read via Kindle Unlimited)

Barkingbiker · Joined: 11 Dec 2006 Posts: 2313 Location: Lincolnshire