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gfloyd
Joined: 07 Dec 2006
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Location: Here, There, Everywhere.
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 Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 9:04 pm Post subject: Russians Rioting in Estonia |
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A second night of rioting and vandalism in the Estonian capital injured 66 people, including six policeman, after the government’s decision to remove a Soviet war memorial revered by minority Russians.
More than 500 people, many of them youths, were detained throughout the night as groups of vandals prowled the streets of central Tallinn breaking shop windows and looting stores, police spokeswoman Julia Garanza said today.
The trouble was sparked by the government’s plan to remove a Second World War statue – dubbed the Bronze Soldier – and exhume a number of Soviet soldiers buried next to it in central Tallinn.
Estonia’s Russians – less than one-third of the country’s 1.3 million population – regard the monument as a shrine to Red Army soldiers who died fighting the Nazis, but ethnic Estonians consider it a painful reminder of hardships during a half-century of Soviet rule.
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The Russians seem to be very upset about this. Estonians seemed to prefer Hitler to Stalin in WW2. Now that Estonia is part of the EU and NATO we could all get dragged into this if tensions get inflammed.
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Cherskiy
Joined: 08 Dec 2006
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Location: near Amble, Northumberland
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| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 7:17 am Post subject: Re: Russians Rioting in Estonia |
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| gfloyd wrote: | | The Russians seem to be very upset about this. Estonians seemed to prefer Hitler to Stalin in WW2. Now that Estonia is part of the EU and NATO we could all get dragged into this if tensions get inflammed. |
The Baltic States were always in a precarious position after WW1 - once Hitler and Stalin had agreed on dividing up Poland, their fates were assured. In the year between the Red Army's occupation of Estonia in June 1940 and the opening shots of "Barbarossa", some 60,000 Estonian were killed and a further 10,000 deported to Siberian work camps. A further 50,000 were forced into the Red Army or Russian armament factories following the German invasion - some managed to escape to Finland and joined that country's army during the so-called "Continuation War". Many of the 50,000 were executed by the NKVD because they were considered to be politically unreliable.
As you say, most Estonians were anti-Communist during WW2 - apart from providing men for various police and anti-partisan 'schuma' battalions, three battalions of troops were undergoing training by the beginning of 1943. The first (the "Narwa Battalion") was thrown into battle near K'harkov, fighting along the "Wiking" SS-Division, but later was trapped inside the infamous Cherkassy pocket in January 1944, only escaping with huge casualties.
At the same time, an Estonian SS division - the 20.SS-Grenadier-Division - was being formed. (Most foreign volunteer units were incorporated into the SS - including the handful of British recruits.) With a cadre of men from the original battalions together with recruits from other units and the volunteers serving with the Finnish Army, in February 1944 the new division was flung into the desperate defence of the Narva bridgehead in Estonia. By May 1944, the division had around 15,000 Estonians, with another 17,000 serving in other security, anti-partisan and police units.
By April 1945 the division had been smashed during the Soviet spring offensive and was retreating westwards through Silesia, trying to reach the American lines to surrender. Encircled and captured by the Russians, its personnel were imprisoned - those who had managed to reach the Americans were handed back under the arrangement agreed at the Yalta conference in February 1945.
Incidentally, a monument to the Estonian soldiers fighting against the Russians between 1940 and 1945 erected in Parnu in 2002 was removed by the Estonian government due to suggestions of anti-Semitism; the monument was re-erected in Lihula in 2004 but quickly removed - it now lies in a nearby private museum. There was a rather angry protest when this monument was removed from Lihula.
(The Nuremberg Trials had excluded the Estonians from war crimes charges as they were considered 'conscripts' and not volunteers.)
Estonia's position in WW2 is a very touchy subject locally - those who defend the position of the SS and Schuma volunteers say they were fighting for their country and were not involved in war crimes (to which they have a point). The minority Russian element (most of whom were re-located there post-war by the Communist regime) obviously have a different story to tell.
The present Russian conventional forces aren't what they used to be, so they can sabre-rattle all they like. It's extremely unlikely that Putin's government would consider lobbing buckets of 'instant sunshine' because of a few protestors - in today's world market, the Russians have much more to lose if they annoy Western industrial countries.
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Author: “To the Ends of the Earth: A Snapshot of Aviation in North-Eastern Siberia, Summer 1992”
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gfloyd
Joined: 07 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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I wouldnt be so sure that the Russians wont interfere in Estonia. The sight of ethnic Russians being discriminated against plays very powerfully in an increasingly chauvanistic Russia.
Nobody expects WW3 out of it, but I wouldnt be surprised if the cut off power supplies during a particularly cold (or hot) spell. They are already talking about breaking off diplomatic relations.
I wonder if the EU would back Estonia if push comes to shove?
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iknewdavidjacobsmum
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| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 6:17 pm Post subject: |
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I just checked out the EU constitution (what a way to spend Sunday)
The 2004 draft proposal states:
security and defence policy:
"The common security and defence policy shall be an integral part of the common foreign and security policy... [It] shall include the progressive framing of a common Union defence policy. This will lead to a common defence when the European Council, acting unanimously, so decides...
If a member state is the victim of armed aggression on its territory, the other member states shall have towards it an obligation of aid and assistance by all the means in their power, in accordance with Article 51 of the United Nations Charter. This shall not prejudice the specific character of the security and defence policy of certain Member States.
Commitments and co-operation in this area shall be consistent with commitments under Nato, which, for those states which are members of it, remains the foundation of their collective defence and the forum for its implementation... "
So I guess it's down to Nato |
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gfloyd
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| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 6:29 pm Post subject: |
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| iknewdavidjacobsmum wrote: |
So I guess it's down to Nato |
Well we could always seize the Chelsea team as hostages if Putin does anything crazy..... 
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Cherskiy
Joined: 08 Dec 2006
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Location: near Amble, Northumberland
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| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 7:54 pm Post subject: |
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Heh heh....
I remember trouble in Lithuania a few years back regarding ethnic Russians being a minority group. Sabre-rattling by the Yeltsin government and that was it. The Russians have much more to lose by breaking off ties with the West - let's face it, they depend on us to be a market for their gas, so cutting off supplies basically cuts off their own funding.
Incidentally, NATO has been providing air defence support for the Baltic states (the so-called 'Baltic Air Policing') for a few years now - IIRC, it was the RAF's turn back at the end of 2004, whilst the current detachment is provided by Armee de l'Air Mirage 2000Cs, to be replaced by Romanian Air Force Lancers (modified MiG-21s) in August. Aircraft are based in Lithuania.
You'd also think if the Russians were that worried about having NATO aircraft parked in their backyard they'd have done something about it by now - either militarily, economically or politically. What useful military assets they still have are being consumed by operations in Chechnya - they don't have the capability to project power around the globe any more - their air force is crippled due to lack of money for fuel and training, their navy is rusting in ports around the country and their soldiers aren't being paid. When I travelled around the country back in '92 the rot had already set in - some of the things we were told about how bad things were in the military were almost unbelievable, if we hadn't then seen it for ourselves....
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