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Weekend News

 
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mark occomore



Joined: 07 Dec 2006
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Location: UK

PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 8:07 pm    Post subject: Weekend News Reply with quote

New concerns are being raised about the safety of the RAF's Nimrod spy planes, following an investigation by Panorama.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6716003.stm

Know Doubt JV will talk about it on his show?

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Gordon Brown has pledged not to put civil liberties at risk over plans to introduce new anti-terror laws.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6716865.stm

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Alcohol brand logos will no longer appear on children's replica sports shirts under a new voluntary code.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6717225.stm

Nanny state

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gfloyd



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 8:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Weekend News Reply with quote

mark occomore wrote:
New concerns are being raised about the safety of the RAF's Nimrod spy planes, following an investigation by Panorama.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6716003.stm

Know Doubt JV will talk about it on his show?-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


This would be the same Panorama that told us that Bob Woolmer had beenn murdered. Except he hadn't been. Oops!

And the same Panorama that tells us that wifi will kill us all with lethal radiation waves.

And the same Panorama that had a screaming match with some wacky cult the other week.
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Cherskiy



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Incidentally, the Nimrods in question here aren't strictly speaking 'spyplanes' (but I'll bet Panorama call them that!) - the MR.2s are maritime search and ASW platforms ('MR' = maritime reconnaissance) - only the three ELINT/SIGINT R.1s based at Waddington are actually 'spyplanes'. One was lost back in 1995 as a result of a wrongly-connected Air Start Valve and was replaced in service by an MR.2 modified to R.1 status. Some MR.2s are however being used for search tasks using various onboard equipment in the 'Stan.

Five losses in 38 years of service since the first MR.1 went into service in 1969 is a pretty good record. IFR was introduced to the Nimrod MR.2 fleet back in 1982 when a crash project to fit refuelling probes to the aircraft was instigated during the Falklands conflict.

There have been four MR.2 losses to date, only the latest one in September 2006 attributable to fuel system problems - the other causes being put down to multiple bird strikes, an errant flare, a wrong electrical cross-connection and loss of control during an air display.

Undoubtedly the fleet has problems due to the age of the airframes - there are also delays in the MRA.4 upgrade - and BB could probably quote chapter and verse re other RAF types that suffered their own share of glitches, but there's still no real evidence yet that fuel pump problems (the latest accident cause) are widespread among the 15 MR.2 airframes currently in service. One aircraft had a dent found in a fuel pipe back in February, leading to another grounding whilst the others were checked out. BB, what's your take on all this?

Withdrawing the fleet from service whilst checks are carried out is commonplace in aviation - where was Panorama when the wing crack problem on the Buccaneer occurred, grounding the type for a while?

Still, I'll be interested to see what evidence the BBC have uncovered....
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Barkingbiker



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nimrods are only modified Comets, which as we all know suffered airfame cracks and failure cause they had square windows, back in the fifties! The Nimrod is basically a very safe aircraft, although as Cherskiy points out an old airframe with lots of very complicated electronics, which by it's very nature will be frequently updated/modified as with any electronics, ie your pc is out of date before you buy it. Having worked in the RAF as a ground engineer, it is common to ground the fleet of any type of aircraft in service if a potential safety hazard is found. At this moment you will have the Nimrod Aircraft Engineering Development and Investigation Team liasing with the Design Authority (BAe) via the RAF Engineering Authority. There are several ways that these problems can be resolved, depending on just how serious and/or wide spread the problem is found to be after a fleet check. A tempory fix can be intiated at 1st line, (Sqdn), level, or if the problem is so serious, it necessitates major modification, the fleet will be grounded until either the RAF Maintenance Unit, or BAe carry out the required modification. Which ever action is taken, safety is always the priority with aircraft. Although it is over 17 years since I left the RAF, and I was a member of an Aircraft Engineering Development & Investigation Team, I cannot believe that the same level of compliance to safety has changed.

BB Twisted Evil
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 9:43 am    Post subject: Re: Weekend News Reply with quote

gfloyd wrote:


This would be the same Panorama that told us that Bob Woolmer had beenn murdered. Except he hadn't been. Oops!



I fear a cover up in this case, I still think he was murdered.
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Cherskiy



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, finally got around to commenting on the Panorama re-hash. A proper story would have explained why the RAF is in the state it is currently in - starved of funds from the Treasury. Oh, but that would involve journalistic effort and analysis, plus a fair bit of political debate - a million miles away from the current fashion of sticking a twit with a journalism degree in front of a microphone and basically repeating what has already been said by the programme announcer in London, chucking in a couple of good sound-bites every few sentences so that the pasty-eating and Diamond White-swilling chavs can also 'join in on the debate'. Lazy reporting but it looks good for the viewers who may not be bright enough to realise that they're not being told anything worthwhile.

You want the RAF to have the best serviceability and safety record it can have? Get the programme makers to point out that the RAF could have a near-100 percent servicability and safety rate if resources, supplies, technical support and training was effectively provided on an unlimited basis as required, rather than having to be pulled from whatever funds that can be spared.

If the RAF were able to do a proper PR job here, rather than answer pointless questions (i.e. "do you think this is good enough?"), then they should have flat-out refused any interviews and simply issued the following statement:

"The RAF accepts that there are many servicability issues with the Nimrod and just about every other aircraft in the RAF's inventory. Every issue is addressed and investigated, and the RAF's personnel do the very best that they can with the limited resources at their disposal."

The daft thing is here that the RAF is ultimately blameless: I mean, it's not as if the service is happy with the notion of any of their crews' lives being at risk in any situation. If HMG want to start 'foreign adventures' all over the globe, you'd think they'd manage to find the cash to equip our boys and girls to do it, rather than 'rob' other aircraft to find spares, and pull others from service to make savings.

The RAF is without doubt the best air force in the world - period. They do a miraculous job given that HMG are telling them to effectively do this with one arm tied behind their back. I still don't understand why the service can't just say "look, we can do the job - why don't you let us?"

If Panorama wanted to really put the boot in, they'd have drawn more attention to the present state of the RAF transport fleet too - the C-130C.1/C.3 fleet, the VC-10s and the Tristars - all knackered, well past their use-by dates and screaming for replacements. I know 'robbing' for spares is a well-used tactic to meet operational requirements but these aircraft are now too long in the tooth - it's like trying to fight the Battle of Britain with Sopwith Camels! Shocked
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gfloyd



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Adrian Goldberg and Ben Dowell
Monday June 11, 2007
The Guardian


Television
Will Panorama ever run out of puff?
Do you know what's on Panorama tonight? Chances are that, even without looking at the listings, you will have a pretty good idea of what it's about, so cute has the BBC become at placing its flagship current affairs programme at the forefront of the news agenda.

Since it was relaunched in January, presented by Jeremy Vine, the show has specialised in the kind of pre-emptive media blitz that was once the hallmark of it closest competitor, Tonight with Trevor McDonald.

Bob Woolmer's (ahem) death by poisoning? John Sweeney tearing a strip off a Scientologist? How wi-fi can damage your health? All these investigations were so extensively trailed in the newspapers and through the BBC's myriad news outlets that even if you didn't watch them, you couldn't ignore their findings.

There's no doubt that it's good for ratings - the Scientology edition pulled in just fewer than 5 million viewers at its ranting, raving peak - but what does this weekly publicity ambush do for serious journalism?

Take Paul Kenyon's WiFi investigation, which made the front page of the Daily Telegraph, and was trailed extensively elsewhere. Its credibility has been seriously questioned in many quarters, not least by the BBC's own science correspondent David Gregory and the Guardian's Bad Science columnist.

A member of the Panorama press team says: "Newspaper editors and other external media make their own judgments about news merit, and they are free to approach subjects of programmes for any additional journalism of their own."
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gfloyd



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One must laugh after seeing Paul Kenyon defending the awful Panorama programme on Wi-Fi on Newswatch.

He reeled off his fluff he'd prepared then they told him the Swedish expert they'd used had been voted 'misleader of the year' by 1600 scientists over there. His sheepish 'ooo, that's not good, is it'? Laughing
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gfloyd



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

and from today's Independent:

Panorama is however being cited as an example of how younger audiences can be reached. The move to a half-hour format on Monday evenings has brought down the average age of the audience by 12 years.


The averge age must have been 16 before the move to Monday nights Laughing
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Barkingbiker



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cherskiy, robbing sick, long term maintenance aircraft for spares is nothing new, nor is the lack of spares, manpower and general logistic support to the RAF. In order to to meet the commitment, usually set by politicians or some mandarin at MOD, who do not understand the short comings of all of our armed forces with regard to resources, service men & women improvise. During a tour of duty at Gutersloh, in the very early 80's, as an Electrical & Avionics trade boss I had to rob the same Harrier GR3 of a fuel flow transmitter 4 times, the last time I sent the technician to "rob" the item in a rugby shirt, a mask and with a black bin bag sack over his shoulder! My superiors did not find my sense of humour amusing and asked why I was acting so infantile, I replied that when you work 12 hours a day, 7 days a week, you have to inject an element of fun into the work programme in order to keep up the guys morale. That was over 25 years ago, and I know that today the financiers have even more control, so how todays RAF groudcrew produce the goods, and they do produce the goods, I just don't know. I am afraid that nothing is new, juist different service people working on different, in some cases, aircraft.

BB Twisted Evil
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John W



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 11:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cherskiy wrote:
the pasty-eating and Diamond White-swilling chavs can also 'join in on the debate'


Eh, surely chavs are Subway-eating and Magner's-swilling nowadays Rolling Eyes Razz

.
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Lord Evan Elpuss



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 7:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John W wrote:
Cherskiy wrote:
the pasty-eating and Diamond White-swilling chavs can also 'join in on the debate'


Eh, surely chavs are Subway-eating and Magner's-swilling nowadays Rolling Eyes Razz

.

or WKD (sounds like a type of weed killer) perhaps. The blue variety of which looks exactly the same colour as the copper solution I used to plate circuit boards with! Shocked
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Behind Geddon's Wall



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 12:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought that WKD blue WAS copper sulphate solution! Only an idiot would drink it.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Barkingbiker wrote:
how todays RAF groudcrew produce the goods, and they do produce the goods, I just don't know. I am afraid that nothing is new, juist different service people working on different, in some cases, aircraft.


I have family members working in various armed services, including two cousins who are currently serving in a tank regiment and also RM in the middle east (somewhere - can't think where!) and their stories are exactly the same with regard to their own resources. Or lack of.
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Ian Robinson
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John W wrote:
Cherskiy wrote:
the pasty-eating and Diamond White-swilling chavs can also 'join in on the debate'


Eh, surely chavs are Subway-eating and Magner's-swilling nowadays Rolling Eyes Razz

.


I love Subway! And Magners! I'm not a chav (in fact, chavs get confused in Subway - confronted with too much choice, the brain shuts down).
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gfloyd



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ian Robinson wrote:


I love Subway! And Magners! I'm not a chav (in fact, chavs get confused in Subway - confronted with too much choice, the brain shuts down).


Me too. I am puzzled by the reference to Subway. Not everybody under 40 is automatically a chav are they? I think this message board suffers from a lot of Victor Meldrewitis sometimes Wink
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It would appear that many people who use the term "chav" to describe young people of a certain social background (as a generalisation) don't really know what a "proper chav" looks like! It has much to do with fashion (eg: Burberry) and also music.
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Barkingbiker



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 10:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gfloyd wrote:


Me too. I am puzzled by the reference to Subway. Not everybody under 40 is automatically a chav are they? I think this message board suffers from a lot of Victor Meldrewitis sometimes Wink



I don't believe it! Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing

BB Twisted Evil
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Barkingbiker



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

firewirefred wrote:


I have family members working in various armed services, including two cousins who are currently serving in a tank regiment and also RM in the middle east (somewhere - can't think where!) and their stories are exactly the same with regard to their own resources. Or lack of.


Yes you are absolutely right fred, very remiss of me I should have said service personnel, all of the armed forces today,IMHO, are stretched to the limit. They do a fantastic job, but most of the time it's like peeing yourself in a pair of dark pants, nobody really notices, you get a lovely warm flush and then it very soon just feels so bloody cold and wet!

BB Twisted Evil
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Barkingbiker wrote:
...most of the time it's like peeing yourself in a pair of dark pants, nobody really notices, you get a lovely warm flush and then it very soon just feels so bloody cold and wet!


That reminds me of a story told to me by a friend of my dad's who was in the Royal Marine Commando (38 or 40, I can't remember) who yomped to Port Stanley after the Atlantic Conveyor got hit. He said that because their sleeping bags were always sopping wet they would wake up wondering if they'd........... Shocked
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Helen May



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Until recently Nimrods regularly flew over my house as they were kitted out at BAE Woodford (close to where I live). Other half would know exactly what they did, but he's not here just now. Amazing aircraft and sad that they are in such a state of disrepair.

H
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