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mark occomore
Joined: 07 Dec 2006
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gfloyd
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 Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 6:15 pm Post subject: |
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They are all in trouble. SAAB in Sweden is teetering on the brink as well.
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mark occomore
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| Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 6:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Honda Swindon? |
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Helen May
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| Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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I think it will be Vauxhall at Ellesmere Port as they are GM owned, and are the ones who seem to be in the worst situation.
H
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mark occomore
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| Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 8:37 pm Post subject: |
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| I reckon production lines will completely stop soon until cars are sold and sorted out? Also I know Unite joint leader, Tony Woodley, says " He's Not Paying Politics In TV News Interview" .. I just think the government need to step in, although we know they can't bail out everyone. |
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colby
Joined: 06 Feb 2009
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| Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 10:21 pm Post subject: |
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| mark occomore wrote: | | I just think the government need to step in, although we know they can't bail out everyone. |
Make your mind up Mark because that's a bit of a contradiction!
So, given that the government cannot bail out everyone, what exactly should the government do in stepping in? It's worth being a bit more specific, because from where I sit it's a case of nationalising the whole of the UK motor industry or not. And if you nationalise one company you really should nationalise the lot because that would lead to unfair competition.
And in the unlikely event that any government would be daft enough to contemplate that (given that we'll be nationalising the banks outright before very long) then we'd be facing a situation many times worse than the BLMC or the 1970s. |
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gfloyd
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| Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 10:43 pm Post subject: |
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Nationalisation no. But if it was just a temporary crash in sales, then some short term support might be appropriate. Somehow though I think car sales wont return to the 2007/08 level for a long time again, so production capacity has to shrink anyway.
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mark occomore
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| Posted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 7:59 am Post subject: |
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It's strange how the BBC and ITV are reporting this and Sky News are not. I wonder if Sky are just sitting on it until it comes out which plant it maybe?
| Quote: | | Yes the government should step in only as thousands of jobs are at risk. |
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gfloyd
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| Posted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 8:21 am Post subject: |
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I'm sure I saw it on Sky.
Jeff Randell has been off this week from Sky - he is usually excellent on tv & in the newspapers. Love the trailer for his show - "If you were in government what is the 1st thing you would do? RESIGN"
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Rachel
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| Posted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 9:10 am Post subject: |
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If the Government, and for that, read you and I, did step in. What would all these car workers do, while the world sits around waiting for people to buy cars again? There's already zillions of unsold new cars stacked up.
That union guy last night put the last nail in the coffin for the place where Astras are made. He said, "we'll be making the new model Astra from September". Who is going to buy an old model Astra now, when there's a new one coming out soon? Then again, who would buy an Astra? |
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Mark Mayhew
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| Posted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 10:35 am Post subject: |
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Ernie-Jeff Randall lives in a local village to me called Shenfield. I saw him in the local bakers this morning-I said hello to him while queueing to buy a loaf.
I'll tell him you a fan of his next time I see him. |
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John W
Joined: 07 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 1:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Rachel wrote: | | That union guy last night put the last nail in the coffin for the place where Astras are made. He said, "we'll be making the new model Astra from September". Who is going to buy an old model Astra now, when there's a new one coming out soon? Then again, who would buy an Astra? |
Rachel,
It's never a secret when new models come out, long term plans for new models are published years ahead, and discussed in all the motor mags, there's probably photos of the new model in What Car? already.
It likely means the old models will be reduced in price to off-load them. The new model will be coming in a bit more expensive unless there's been some significant saving in the assembly process.
I've been to Ellesmere Port plant a few times, doing inspections in the paint department. They also make some versions of the Vectra at Ellesmere Port and export some of them to Germany with Opel badges on them.
John |
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mark occomore
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mark occomore
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| Posted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 11:33 pm Post subject: |
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| gfloyd wrote: | I'm sure I saw it on Sky.
Jeff Randell has been off this week from Sky - he is usually excellent on tv & in the newspapers. Love the trailer for his show - "If you were in government what is the 1st thing you would do? RESIGN"
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They are running the story now. |
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colby
Joined: 06 Feb 2009
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| Posted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 11:55 pm Post subject: Re: Astra plant named |
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| mark occomore wrote: | | The government isn't going plough money into a product which isn't going to sell. It's a shame, but you got to blame those greedy bankers. Also Brown seems to be a finished man, who wasn't elected by us the voters. |
I beg to differ. Brown was elected by us voters; we voted for Parliamentary candidates of one political flavour or another, and those that made up the majority determined their leader who then, by default, became PM. That's the way it works in the Labour Party. When one person ceases to be PM, the party then elects it new leader who, by default, becomes PM. And so Brown succeeded Blair as party leader and so PM. That's a fair system to me.
The alternative is a Presidential system which is not something that's a practical alternative in the UK in my opinion. It's as daft as electing Mayors or Police Commissioners (in my humble opinion). It inevitably becomes a celebrity contest.
And although it might be OK to blame greedy bankers, the fact is that we've got to move to the "practical solutions" stage - and I don't come into contact with many people who have any of those. |
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Rachel
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| Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 8:36 am Post subject: |
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| So is it the LDV Van place or is there more bad news to come later today? Who was telling the porkies? The Government claimed to know nothing about this over the weekend but you wake up Monday morning and there it is as black as your hat. The Government excel at making themselves look stupid. I guess it's easy to excel at something very easy. |
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RockitRon
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| Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 9:59 am Post subject: |
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I don't think it will be the last by any means, and today might be a good day to announce more, while everyone is preoccupied with the almost unprecedented British success at the Academy Awards.
I does strike me that a lot of the closures and business failures announced so far are of companies which were on borrowed time anyway - LDV (British Leyland/DAF) had already been rescued, many times. Nevertheless, it does illustrate just how full of hot nothing all those promises and announcements of help and assistance were; the voice to listen to is that of the Treasury behind, which says there's no money in the pot, and if we really want to save the producer of white vans and its 850 jobs then we've got to pay, through the nose, and/or by diverting resources from NHS and education. Local elections coming up in under three months time - it's a tough choice.
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colby
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| Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 10:31 am Post subject: |
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| RockitRon wrote: | | I does strike me that a lot of the closures and business failures announced so far are of companies which were on borrowed time anyway - LDV (British Leyland/DAF) had already been rescued, many times. |
In the case of many businesses (Wooworth, for example) I'm sure that's true. However, for hundreds of thousands of small businesses it isn't necessarily the case.
I'm interested to see Panorama tonight in which Theo Paphites consider the scandal of over 100 small and medium-sized businesses per day being forced to close by the irrational, protectionist, attitude of the main banks - even after the so-called government rescue package.
By the way, my wife has given her all to Argos at its head office for 18 years and has been very good at her job. This Friday is her last with the company - she's one of 200 who've been made compulsorily redundant. Argos is a "cash rich" company with a bank current account that's very much in the black. Yes, she will receive a generous pay-off, but it's still a kick in the teeth. Never again will she make such a commitment to a large employer. |
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gfloyd
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| Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 10:51 am Post subject: |
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| RockitRon wrote: | | , while everyone is preoccupied with the almost unprecedented British success at the Academy Awards. |
Yes this "news" seems to be everywhere. Meanwhile the office clerk of the year awards hardly got any coverage. Some jobs seem to get higher recognition for turning up than others...........
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Helen May
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| Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 11:08 am Post subject: |
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One thing that really gets me is why the British Govt. should bail out a Russian owned business? If it were the other way round would we do the same thing?
On second thoughts don't answer that, because this soft Govt would bail out anyone but the poor who have worked hard all their lives and paid their taxes.
H
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88 - 91 FM this is Radio 2 from the BBC!
I said it live on air in the studio with Jeremy Vine on 10/3/2005 |
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colby
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| Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 11:14 am Post subject: |
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| Helen May wrote: | | One thing that really gets me is why the British Govt. should bail out a Russian owned business? If it were the other way round would we do the same thing? |
I think any "bail out" of companies like LDV will surely come in the form of corporate loan guarantees rather than actual cash in the bank. After all, it's the lack of loans underwriting that's causing the logjam for banks' lending to businesses at the moment. |
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Rachel
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| Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 11:59 am Post subject: |
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| If there isn't a credible business case to underwrite the business loan in isolation - then any underwriting from the Government will only lead to further public cash being pledged to keep a business going for the sake of it. Eventually, it will close, and the tax-payer will pick up the bill because we will have to clear the loans that the Government agreed to underwrite. It's a light version of nationalisation. The union guy on the news over the weekend is just a taste of what it would be like, if we did nationalise any manufacturing industries. Instead of, oh please help us, it would be we're not doing anything until you give us more money. If the company cannot sell its product- what is the point of building a van mountain? |
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Helen May
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| Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 12:12 pm Post subject: |
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Exactly Rachel!
It wouldn't be Russian owned if it was a viable business in the first place. Very sad that people will lose their jobs but we can't go on like this.
H
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colby
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| Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 12:29 pm Post subject: |
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I don't disagree with any of the above (I'm a self-employed person my self and have been since 1984) but what bothers me is that any government is in a lose-lose situation here simply because if it underwrites the company's finances for a duration it loses (we lose) money, but then if it doesn't it still loses (we lose) loney through (a) reduced corporate and personal income tax revenues and (b) increased costs of redundancy and benefits paid to those who are rendered unemployed.
Investing in the business doesn't mean that the company has to continue building vans for which there is no market - it could mean providing capital for LDV to produce a new generation of automotive products that use some of the radical new automotive technologies currently under development in the UK (and for which we're world leaders).
It just doesn't make sense to me to pull the rug from under something that might be sustainable after this whole silly mess turns around. |
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RockitRon
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| Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 12:37 pm Post subject: |
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| colby wrote: | | RockitRon wrote: | | I does strike me that a lot of the closures and business failures announced so far are of companies which were on borrowed time anyway - LDV (British Leyland/DAF) had already been rescued, many times. |
In the case of many businesses (Wooworth, for example) I'm sure that's true. However, for hundreds of thousands of small businesses it isn't necessarily the case.
I'm interested to see Panorama tonight in which Theo Paphites consider the scandal of over 100 small and medium-sized businesses per day being forced to close by the irrational, protectionist, attitude of the main banks - even after the so-called government rescue package.
By the way, my wife has given her all to Argos at its head office for 18 years and has been very good at her job. This Friday is her last with the company - she's one of 200 who've been made compulsorily redundant. Argos is a "cash rich" company with a bank current account that's very much in the black. Yes, she will receive a generous pay-off, but it's still a kick in the teeth. Never again will she make such a commitment to a large employer. |
You're probably right, colby. LDV, Adams, Waterford Wedgwood, Woolies, Virgin/Zavvi - the list is long and one factor which helped their earlier rescue was probably the size and profile of the name. Most small to medium businesses don't have that luxury.
That said, and I know times have changed, but when I worked for one, the bank's appointment of an administrator or receiver was very much a last resort, when there was no doubt that the business had no prospect of trading at a level sufficient to service its existing debt. The breakage of covenants, theoretically a trigger for formal demand (cancellation of bank lending), was rarely the only reason.
Theo Paphitis has done more than his fair share of rescuing ailing companies, and his comments will be interesting to hear.
I am sorry to hear about your wife, and this is the side of things which all of us who work for someone for a living find hard to brook. Yes, it is still a cash-rich company, Home Retail Group plc. As well as Argos it runs Homebase; I think both have experienced lower like-for-like sales and gross profit margins for the 9 months of the year so far, and in such times companies do make a habit of cutting costs by making staff, usually the valuable, experienced, loyal, but costly, ones redundant. The only comfort to be drawn might be that the terms are generous - there is an increasing trend for companies to pay the bare, statutory minimum.
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Rachel
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| Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 1:07 pm Post subject: |
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| colby wrote: | I don't disagree with any of the above (I'm a self-employed person my self and have been since 1984) but what bothers me is that any government is in a lose-lose situation here simply because if it underwrites the company's finances for a duration it loses (we lose) money, but then if it doesn't it still loses (we lose) loney through (a) reduced corporate and personal income tax revenues and (b) increased costs of redundancy and benefits paid to those who are rendered unemployed.
Investing in the business doesn't mean that the company has to continue building vans for which there is no market - it could mean providing capital for LDV to produce a new generation of automotive products that use some of the radical new automotive technologies currently under development in the UK (and for which we're world leaders).
It just doesn't make sense to me to pull the rug from under something that might be sustainable after this whole silly mess turns around. |
The second of the two would be the lesser loss. Investing in new technology is a great idea, especially if it's green transport, but if this downturn thing is going to last between 5 and 10 years (as some "experts" are saying) then that's a pretty long term punt, and in a time when people are feeling short of cash - it's unlikely that they'll have any spare to splash around on early in the day new technology automotive products- which as we all know are soon replaced with better ones. It's always a big mistake to buy into new technology at the beginning- even though the money from that is often used to fund the development of it.
LDV should be allowed to go bust - then sold off in parts with the new technology aspects, ring fenced as a separate business, with a great business plan capable of a stand-alone creditworthiness. Bingo! |
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colby
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| Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 1:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Rachel wrote: | | It's always a big mistake to buy into new technology at the beginning- even though the money from that is often used to fund the development of it. |
A lot of the technologies aren't new, though, that's the problem. They're the kind of developments that are showcased in Formula 1 car racing (why are all F1 teams based in the UK?) and in more than one case that I know of their continued development is now being stifled through banks' short-sightedness and protectionism.
My son was, until recently, working as a fuel injection/ fuel-efficiency engineering technician for one such company who had just been offered a £3m R&D contract but had to withdraw because their corporate bank has decided not to extend their existing facility. The contract has gone to a German company (one that supplies Audi) and 3 week ago the business was put into administration with 20 redundancies. Thankfully, my son jumped ship a matter of 4 weeks before it went down. Some of the people laid off have already left the country and a friend of my son is now heading to Australia - so their skills have now gone. It's ridiculous.
There's something wrong here - and it's all down to the short-termism we've come to expect in the UK in recent years - only far worse. |
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Rachel
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| Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 1:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Oh I don’t want to get into a debate on fuel injection systems – especially if that is a fossil fuel. Formula 1 is fantastic at advancing technology – that’s a given; antilock brakes – traction control, fuel computers, tyre wear and tread patterns, fire retardants, aerodynamics, carbon fibre semi- monocoque structures etc, all of which came from F1, but they’re a few laps behind on power-plants.. engines – they are the dog’s whatsits with petrol engines, maybe even ( so I’ve heard) diesel engines, but that isn’t where we are going with road cars. F1 should be leading the way with alternative power units. Internal combustion is so last century. We can talk about F1 Engines in another thread maybe in future. |
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colby
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| Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 2:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Rachel wrote: | | Oh I don’t want to get into a debate on fuel injection systems – especially if that is a fossil fuel. |
My son and all of his former colleagues are very much opposed to use of fossil fuels.
| Rachel wrote: | | Formula 1 is fantastic at advancing technology – that’s a given; antilock brakes – traction control, fuel computers, tyre wear and tread patterns, fire retardants, aerodynamics, carbon fibre semi- monocoque structures etc, all of which came from F1, but they’re a few laps behind on power-plants.. engines – they are the dog’s whatsits with petrol engines, maybe even ( so I’ve heard) diesel engines, but that isn’t where we are going with road cars. F1 should be leading the way with alternative power units. Internal combustion is so last century. We can talk about F1 Engines in another thread maybe in future. |
My son, who is now working on some very new technologies - some of which are diesel based and some of which aren't - is the one to debate with not me! He's also involved in R&D for new-generation power units and leaves me and my limited understanding way behind. He did hear a certain Mr. J. Clarkson waffling on about some "brand new development in engine technology" the other day and exclaimed something along the lines of "that bloke is a (expletives deleted) - we were working on that 4 years ago!".
It does worry me that we, as a nation, are going to yet again stifle growth through short-term thinking largely because those who control our economy don't know what they're doing.
Anyhow, I'm out of my depth as soon as I get beyond spark plugs, timing chains and 1970s Ford Cortina thermostats that had a tendancy to jam shut, so I'm no use in further discussion on the topic, but I think it's mad to let our engineering skillbase to leach away even further. That's what will happen though, it's obvious. |
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mark occomore
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| Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 6:40 pm Post subject: |
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| It maybe LDV as they are running out of cash. The government isn't going to bail them out and make it clear it's down the parent company to help.. So they wont get any redundancy, and 100's of labour voters not marking the red box. |
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colby
Joined: 06 Feb 2009
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| Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 8:13 pm Post subject: |
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| mark occomore wrote: | | ISo they wont get any redundancy, and 100's of labour voters not marking the red box. |
They will get some form of redundancy because whatever the company's administrator's (if it gets to that) determine, the government has to top up to statutory minimum.
And don't assume that everyone who works in industry votes labour either. Thanks to darlin' Maggie they now have mortgages to pay so they'll be just as likely to vote for the tories. What once was "the working class" is now the middle class. |
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