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Blondehedgehog · Joined: 16 Sep 2010 Posts: 286 Location: UK

I read and see on TV that the powers that be want us to have double summer time. I would just like to stay on GMT and have no changes..

What is the feeling out there?
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ColinB · Guest

Yes, I agree with you. I hate the messing about with the clocks. I'd prefer it to be left as it is all year round.

I always feel for the graveyard-shift radio presenters (like poor old Alex Lester!) who get to 1.00am only to have to fill in for another virtual hour until......... 1.00am again!

I remember driving home from a job in London early one morning and I got home before I even left!

Helen May · Joined: 10 Dec 2006 Posts: 19335 Location: Cheshire

Having lived through the last experiment of not putting the clocks back, I'd prefer to stay the way we are now. I remember being in school/college and it was dark until almost 10 o'clock, not nice. Most who are advocating the change haven't lived through it so don't know what it's like.

H
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MadeinSurrey · Posted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 9:52 am Post subject:

Let's at least keep BST all year round, would much prefer it to stay lighter in the winter months for as long as possible.
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ruddlescat · Joined: 16 Sep 2010 Posts: 18010 Location: Near Chester

I'm all in favour of the change

It brings us into line with the rest of Europe and we have lighter evenings when most people have free time to enjoy it plus less accidents less power demand less greenhouse gas output and many other similar benefits

As far as I'm concerned it can't happen soon enough Smile

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Rachel · Guest

Helen May · Joined: 10 Dec 2006 Posts: 19335 Location: Cheshire

ruddlescat · Joined: 16 Sep 2010 Posts: 18010 Location: Near Chester

I'm not suggesting that coming into line with the rest of Europe is the main reason we should do it as it's really just an added bonus

As far as use of electricity is concerned for example if you look at the present situation in mid summer it is dark in most places across the country from roughly 10.30pm to 4.30am but most people are asleep from 12pm to 6am

Putting two hours on the clock instead of one will bring the hours of darkness into line with this thus aiding sleep and saving energy

As far as winter is concerned it really doesn't matter to most people about darkness in a morning because they are busy at that time of day whereas if we have extra light in the evening people can enjoy it and use it much more beneficially

I know there are always some people whose lifestyle might not conform with the norm but at the end of the day in a democratic society the majority view should generally prevail and actually I think perhaps this issue could be the subject of a referendum

We now have a Scottish Parliament in respect of which there are currently proposals to grant more powers so there is no reason why that body could not vote to retain the present system if it was felt that Scotland would be adversely affected by the change elsewhere
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Helen May · Joined: 10 Dec 2006 Posts: 19335 Location: Cheshire

I thought it was the evening darkness in winter that they want to counteract though? I can't see the point of having daylight until midnight in summer. it's far easier to sleep in darkness than daylight.

H
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I said it live on air in the studio with Jeremy Vine on 10/3/2005

ruddlescat · Joined: 16 Sep 2010 Posts: 18010 Location: Near Chester

But that's the point Helen

Most people in mid summer at present get woken up too early because it gets light at 4.30am but if if was an hour darker many people would get an hour's extra sleep and wouldn't feel so tired so for example they should be safer drivers

And in winter you have to remember that a very large percentage of the population work in offices where they put all the lights on as soon as the office opens at 9am so if it's dark until say 10am in mid winter it will not lead to any more energy use because the lights are on anyway at the moment

As I saidI think the fairest thing might be to put the proposed change to the people in a referendum
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Helen May · Joined: 10 Dec 2006 Posts: 19335 Location: Cheshire

It's getting to sleep in daylight which would be my problem! Where I come from it's light until almost 11 in midsummer as it is. In the north of Scotland it is much later.

If it goes to a referendum it will more than likely go through because there are more people in the south who would not be affected so much by the change.

H
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I said it live on air in the studio with Jeremy Vine on 10/3/2005

preraphaeliteangel · Joined: 16 Nov 2010 Posts: 249 Location: Yorkshire

I hope they leave things as they are. I can't bear dark mornings and I'd hate to have more of them.

RockitRon · Joined: 07 Dec 2006 Posts: 7646

The proposal this time is that we align ourselves with Western Europe (what was formerly the "free, non-communist" part), still moving the clocks in March and October, so that, in southern England it will be light until 11pm in June and 5pm in December. I think the benefit to tourism is marginal - weather and temperature is more relevant and there's SFA that even the coalition can do about that.

The difference in "daylight hours" between southern England and northern Scotland at the solstices is about an hour and a half, so one can understand the Scots ambivalence at midnight sunshine (almost) and their chagrin at the prospect of darkness until 10am in midwinter.

I was here in Nottingham and still at school during the 1968 experiment of permanent GMT+1, and don't recall it being any great inconvenience, or advantage. However, I think that it did founder because of the adverse public opinion in the North and Scotland.
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Helen May · Joined: 10 Dec 2006 Posts: 19335 Location: Cheshire

You don't have to go as far north as Scotland Ron to have daylight pretty much up to 11 on clear nights.

I remember being on St Mary's lsland, just off Whitley Bay, probably almost on the longest day with some Belgian people who were amazed how light it stayed!

H
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BDG · Joined: 08 Dec 2006 Posts: 202

Surely the actual time it is has nothing to do with it?!! Only in the respect of getting up for work or going to school.

It gets light at x and dark at y regardless of the "time" we set our clocks to?! You are going to get woken up early in the morning when it gets light whatever time the clock says surely? The main reason for changing the clocks is because if not in the winter kids would be going and coming back from school in the dark is my understanding of it.

Cherskiy · Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 5:14 pm Post subject:

Helen May · Joined: 10 Dec 2006 Posts: 19335 Location: Cheshire

ruddlescat · Joined: 16 Sep 2010 Posts: 18010 Location: Near Chester

Cherskiy whilst I understand what you're saying I don't think you are necessarily representative of the majority of the population

Most people don't leave home at 5.30am but probably more like 8 to 8.30 am and I think that's why it might be a problem for you but not for the majority

I don't really consider myself to be living in the South being that it's almost two hundred miles north west of London

The fact is whatever decision is made it will not please everyone but as I said before in a democracy the majority view should prevail and the best way to test it is in a national referendum
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Helen May · Joined: 10 Dec 2006 Posts: 19335 Location: Cheshire

Coming from Newcastle and now living in Cheshire all I can say is that there is a vast difference in daylight lengths and that is only of a distance of approx 175 miles.

I can also confirm the dark mornings that Cherskiy describes are correct, I was up there when they last tried the experiment.

H
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I said it live on air in the studio with Jeremy Vine on 10/3/2005

Cherskiy · Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 12:31 pm Post subject:

iwarburton · Joined: 08 Dec 2006 Posts: 2133 Location: Northumberland

There are arguments both ways but, having been around when this was tried in 1968/71, I'd rather leave things as they are, except that I'd advance putting the clocks forward to the first weekend of March.

Ian.

ruddlescat · Joined: 16 Sep 2010 Posts: 18010 Location: Near Chester

I don't live in London or the South East( in fact almost 200 miles away) but I really fail to see why people anywhere in the country should have a problem with darkness for longer in a morning

Although not true of everyone most people work a 9 to 5 day and so if they are leaving for work at say 8am it really doesn't matter if it is dark outside because there is nothing useful they can do at that time in the morning other than get on with their work

The extra light is however very useful to them in the evening and reduces energy consumption and makes there less chance of accidents happening and generally gives everyone more available free time which is much needed in the stressful world in which we now live

As I said the issue should be put to a referendum and we should all accept the outcome whatever it may be
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graham b · Joined: 23 Sep 2010 Posts: 211 Location: Wakefield

We are just coming to the time when I can set off for work in the light and get home in the light. It's something I look forward to every year. I feel a lot better when I arrive travel in daylight rather than shuffling around in the dark like a troglodyte. Why should I want extra daylight in the summer when I want to get to sleep to go to work the next day. Leave it as it is.

Cherskiy · Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 7:56 pm Post subject:

Cherskiy · Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 8:03 pm Post subject:

ruddlescat · Joined: 16 Sep 2010 Posts: 18010 Location: Near Chester

Cherskiy, I've no wish to fall out with you because I do tend to agree with you on most issues but I have to take issue at your description as the prospect of a referendum as being an 'X Factor style vote'

On Thursday of this week the people of Wales will be voting in a referendum on the issue of whether the Welsh Assembly should be given full legislative powers without the need to get permission from Westminster

I think most of those voters would be grossly insulted to be compared to the idiots who vote on the X Factor

In my experience people who dislike referenda tend to be those who have little respect for democracy and want to push their own agenda however much their fellow citizens may disagree

One only has to look at all the broken promises made by politicians of all parties over their dishonoured promises to give the voters a referendum on the issue of further European integration

People are currently complaining of a lack of democracy in Libya and certain other places but when it comes to listening to the majority opinion within Britain certain people would seem to conveniently move the goalposts though thankfully not the present Government it would seem
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ColinB · Guest

ruddlescat · Joined: 16 Sep 2010 Posts: 18010 Location: Near Chester

Yes I can see what you're saying Colin but on a non political issue such as the proposal to put two hours on the clock I believe that this is exactly the type of issue on which a referendum is appropriate

That is, of course, because there is no real agenda which can be manipulated by politicians for their own advantage
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ColinB · Guest

MadeinSurrey · Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 8:40 am Post subject:

Colin, the Referendum on the "Common Market "(as the EC was called then) was held in 1975 under Harold Wilson's Premiership.
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ColinB · Guest

Blondehedgehog · Joined: 16 Sep 2010 Posts: 286 Location: UK

ruddlescat · Joined: 16 Sep 2010 Posts: 18010 Location: Near Chester

I agree Hedgehog and I also voted against it and would do the same again

Of course what people approved in the 1975 referendum was being part of a European trade organisation where there would be cooperation between members but on the basis each country remained a sovereign and independent state

Over the years politicians of all parties have coerced the British people down the road of European integration to the point now where the majority of our laws are made in Brussels and we no longer have the power to prevent prisoners from voting or even to give cheaper car insurance to safer female drivers

Margaret Thatcher did her best to swim against this tide but even she had limited success in opposing the European agenda

Most politicians constantly ignore the electorate on this issue not just in Britain but also in France and Germany the majority of whose populations also want to remain sovereign states

Although I normally vote Conservative I'll be voting UKIP in the next election unless the present Government starts standing up to the dictators in Brussels just like we stood up to Hitler in World War Two
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ColinB · Guest

I'm on the fence where the EU (in its current form) is concerned. Last year, I was able to bid for work for a Luxembourg-based organisation that I just wouldn't have been able to do if there were trade barriers and tarrifs. I also did some work for a Spanish organisation in Madrid that helped to pay my bills.

I'm very much in favour of a "common, open, Europe-wide market" but I don't like the "Political State of Europe" concept at all. I was once in favour of the UK's joining the Single European Currency (the Euro) largely because it would make it much easier to compete on a level playing field, but after the experiences of the last three years I've now changed my mind completely.

I do invoice my European Union clients in Euros, though, so it's quite a risk - especially when lead times are lengthy.

RockitRon · Joined: 07 Dec 2006 Posts: 7646

ruddlescat · Joined: 16 Sep 2010 Posts: 18010 Location: Near Chester

Colin, I entirely agree

That's what the whole EEC thing was supposed to be about
Abolishing trade tarrifs between member states and creating a level playing field in order to help every country within the organisation
It was never supposed to be a political or monetary union

And ask yourself has the whole concept helped Britain
We have more expensive fuel costs than most of Europe not to mention more expensive alcohol charges, car prices and travel costs just to mention a few examples and other countries like Norway and Switzerland with much smaller populations and smaller economies than ours have prospered quite happily over the last thirty years prior to the current recession

The single currency has been a complete disaster which many of us predicted years ago and even outside it we are having to spend billions bailing out the likes of Greece, Ireland and probably others before very long

There is a secret agenda amongst mainstream European politicians to force everyone into a United States of Europe whether the ordinary people want it or not and perhaps it's time we had a revolution here - a revolution to take back the right to run our own country how we want rather than what suits other people
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Helen May · Joined: 10 Dec 2006 Posts: 19335 Location: Cheshire

Cherskiy · Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 12:09 pm Post subject:

ruddlescat · Joined: 16 Sep 2010 Posts: 18010 Location: Near Chester

But am I not right in thinking that politicians are or at least should be elected to Parliament in order to represent the views of the majority of their constituents and NOT to vote in accordance with whatever personal views they may have on a particular issue?

Perhaps with the exception of real moral issues such as abortion, blood sports and the like

What we need in this country is a more direct form of democracy
I bet most people who voted for Nick Clegg would agree Smile

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