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ruddlescat



Joined: 16 Sep 2010
Posts: 18010
Location: Near Chester

PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="becky sharp"]
ruddlescat wrote:


But surely that's because the vehicle manufacturing industry in Britain used to be almost entirely American owned - before the likes of BMW and the Far Eastern manufacturers took over - so no surprise there Smile

But the labour,I'm imagining, was from Britain, hence my surprise. I shouldn't have thought that the American owners were on the shop floor every day influencing how the workers talked.[/quote

True Becky but I guess that they used certain technical terms many of which would have originated from the likes of GM and Ford in America - they were probably in regular daily use in the context of a few specialist factories producing products for American owned companies but not in ordinary British society Sad
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Colin



Joined: 26 Sep 2013
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's good to know that at least one word - "menu" - that we use to represent options on a computer screen was first used in Britain. Apart from obvious link to catering, the word was first coined by cryptanalysts at Bletchley Park during World War 2 and has been a basic term of reference throughout the computing community every since.

Ah, but hang on, the word originates from France, does it not?

Dammit, these corruptive foreign influences on the "English" language!!!! Crying or Very sad
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ruddlescat



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's perfectly true to say that we have adopted certain words and phrases from foreign languages including many from French - and by the way they have adopted some from us eg le weekend - but that's rather a different point from the one we were originally discussing - which was how Americanisms were invading and devaluing our treasured language and culture - it's one thing to adopt certain words from foreign languages but after all at the end of the day the yanks are supposed to be speaking the same one as us

What is it they say - two countries divided by a common language Smile
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Colin



Joined: 26 Sep 2013
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But my point, Rudds, is that our "treasured language and culture" have never really been thus. It's nothing but an illusion because everything about what is perceived to be "English" is a complex mix of influences from just about everywhere. Even our Queen is, for the most part, German!
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John W



Joined: 07 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 11:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ruddles, you are talking like English was born a pure new language.

Not at all. If you have a old dictionary that notes source/etymology then a good percentage of our words are Latin, Greek, Old French, not that many are 'Olde Englishe', indeed the word etymology is from the classical Greek Smile
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ruddlescat



Joined: 16 Sep 2010
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 11:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes John but those words came into the English language from proper foreign languages of the origins you mention

American speak is not a foreign language - or at least it's not supposed to be - it's a distorted version of traditional English

By the way I'm in no sense anti American and I have several American friends who actually agree with my views on this topic - one recently told me that when they visit Britain on holiday they don't want to be fed a cultural diet of what they can get at home - they want to see hear and enjoy the traditional aspects of our country

Funnily enough I was watching a very interesting programme on BBC2 this evening about the lives of Morecambe and Wise and the point was made that Eric effectively abandoned any desire to become big in America in 1968 as he refused to compromise his proper English vocabulary in favour of Americanspeak even if that meant abandoning the idea of making it big over the water -clearly a man who put his principles before the lure of big money - good on you Eric Very Happy
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Colin



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 11:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ruddlescat wrote:
Yes John but those words came into the English language from proper foreign languages of the origins you mention


That simply isn't true.
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John W



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 12:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ruddlescat wrote:
Yes John but those words came into the English language from proper foreign languages of the origins you mention


No ruddles, they didn't come INTO the English language -, they created what IS 'English' today! Prior to the Norman invasion there was not just one English language. Different languages were spoken in Wessex, Mercia, Northumbria, Cornwall etc. It took centuries before most of the country had 'one language', Similarly before the Roman invasion a millennium earlier the languages would have been different then. If you want to find original 'English' language go listen to Welsh speakers, they fled the Romans and retained the language of middle England!

Today's English is changing all the time - new words come in all the time from Scotland, Liverpool, Ireland, Jamaica, London ethnics, Australia and USA - all 'English speaking' regions who add to what you probably want to call the 'mother language'. Yet you only want to target USA.
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Colin



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think we're going round in circles here, John!

Like you, the point I was making above is that even what we call "English" varies around the country - and that's why I singled out the fate of the Cornish language about a thousand posts back. The language even my great-grandmother spoke in West Cornwall back in Victorian times had already been affected by the coming of the Great Western Railway in the mid-1800s, and the way Grandfather spoke in Cornwall was very different to the way my wife's grand-parents spoke in south Buckinghamshire. It's not just dialect, in lots of cases the words used are different too - as in "do'ee ave a disho'tay?" which, translated into English and now widely spoken in Cornwall, means "Would you like a cup of tea?"

"External influences" are continuing to influence language (just like they always have) even within the UK.

Anyway, it looks like the Postie has just arrived. Sorry - the Postal Delivery Person.
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essexlady



Joined: 10 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do you mean the postman, Colin? Ooops no, of course it should be the postperson Very Happy
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Colin



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

essexlady wrote:
Do you mean the postman, Colin? Ooops no, of course it should be the postperson Very Happy


Yep, something like that! Smile

(Is "postie" an Americanism?)
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Lord Evan Elpuss



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Location: Cloud Cuckoo Land

PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Colin wrote:
(Is "postie" an Americanism?)

No, that would be 'Mailman'. But having said that, The Carpenters did sing 'Please Mr Postman'!! Confused
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ruddlescat



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I reckon we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one Colin and John because I don't think there is any definitive answer -just different opinions and certainly mine won't change and probably the same goes for you

Smile
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ruddlescat



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I reckon we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one Colin and John because I don't think there is any definitive answer -just different opinions and certainly mine won't change and probably the same goes for you

Smile
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Colin



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 11:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't worry - there's nothing about which to disagree. The fact is that language is constantly evolving.........

........and that's a fact! Smile
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ruddlescat



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 12:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well Colin - as it's quite apparent that you don't seem to want to accept the 'agree to disagree' formula which I suggested I guess the debate must continue Smile

Of course I accept that language evolves and indeed has to do so not least because we need names for new concepts in this internet and digital age where manyprocesses do not have existing names but the issue here is not the fact that our language evolves - but rather the current excessive rate of evolvement

The English language has arrived at its position today by gradual evolvement over several hundred years but our language is now being overrun by foreign influences as never before and for this I blame the existence of the world wide web together with the inane American rubbish being churned out by the Murdoch Empire via Sky TV as a result of which our young people ape the silly language which they read or hear via these organisations so it's small wonder that standards in English language exams are at their lowest figure on record

For me the debate over the evolution of language is rather like the current problems concerning foreign immigration into this country - there's nothing wrong with immigration in itself as we need specialist expertise in many areas of life in Britain today but the problem is the indiscriminate numbers of immigrants pouring into Britain today which is destroying my British culture and I'm certainly not alone in holding such a view

It's a similar position with the language issue - there's nothing wrong with language evolving but this ought to be gradual and of course whilst politicians can do something about rates of immigration give the will to do so there is really nothing they can do about the continuing destruction of our language which mainly comes from aspects beyond their control

It's just one of the reasons why I dislike life in this country so much in 2013 Mad Mad
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Colin



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah yes, but............

.............on second thoughts, I can't be bothered!
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John W



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh ruddles, glad you have accepted that the language evolves.

As for the rate of evolvement, well there's isn't much you can do about it, though I am sure there are societies you could join and wallow in your Queen's English and Received Pronunciation (if you like that).

You've even identified the causes of the recent rapid rate of evolvement, and that reminds me what I referred to much earlier in the thread - the last rapid evolvement occurred in the jazz age with the advent of recordings, sheet music and films from USA. Hmm I suppose there was also a rapid evolvement in the 1960s too?
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ruddlescat



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2013 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've no wish to reopen past discussions on this thread but I was driving through Leicester today listening to SW when the pre recorded interview with David Beckham came on - and Steve was talking about his forthcoming film 'The Class Of 92' telling the story of the so called golden team at Man United during that era - and Steve described it as a 'forthcoming movie' - and then very quickly corrected himself by uttering the words 'sorry I should say film'

I almost crashed the car Shocked

My first thought was well done Steve for actually getting it right - but then I thought - well he's been talking about 'movies' for years going back to his Radio One days so why suddenly now would he think of correcting himself

I just wonder whether he or possibly people close to him actually read the comments on this forum - it does seem rather a coincidence Smile
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Colin



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2013 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How funny. I was en route to Norfolk and I also heard that. I immediately thought of you Ruddles! Smile
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Schizoidman



Joined: 20 Sep 2010
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2013 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just hope he hasn't read some of the things I said about him recently.

By the way Ruddles, why do you say 'so called' golden team? The youngsters that Fergie brought up in the mid 90s (Becks, Giggs, Scholes, Butt, the two Nevilles) were pretty much a golden team.
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ruddlescat



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2013 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Schizoidman wrote:
I just hope he hasn't read some of the things I said about him recently.

By the way Ruddles, why do you say 'so called' golden team? The youngsters that Fergie brought up in the mid 90s (Becks, Giggs, Scholes, Butt, the two Nevilles) were pretty much a golden team.


Probably because I'm a Liverpool fan Schiz Laughing
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